NuGuy

Hi Carl,

Don't forget SLI instructors. Don't you feel better now that a non-line guy is doing your training? You should, because Alfa (AKA the company) tells you its "just as good because everyone else is doing it"

Don't forget the 300 or so pilot backfill that was required because we had ACTUAL line pilots doing the training.

Oh yea, aren't those 15 hour actual domestic duty days spiffy?

Not to mention the threat of being junior manned when you pick up the phone. But according to Alfa, you should go a head and chip in some of your own cash to get a second phone line...and a headset...and a subscription to a computer program that does what the company should be doing.

I'm pretty happy that no one that talks like Alfa wound up on the NC. Times are changin', though, and this fall will be interesting...and, as usual, it will be the DTW guys pulling the lead...

Nu

PS I heard far more than one fDAL guy talking about doing EXACTLY the same thing as the USAir East guys did if the arbitration didn't go their way. You can bet that was communicated right to the top of the pyramid.

Carl Spackler

I know. Guys like alfa are all about highlighting just what they want.

I just think it's important to the US Air guys on this forum to know the background of the guys from DAL who call them vicious names. They need to know those very guys don't have the courage to stand up to their company for anything. Never have, never will. I think they know that now and that's all that matters. There certainly is no changing alfa and his ilk's mind - unless the company tells them to change their mind that is.

Carl

Reroute

Nu, if the DAL pilots had been planning to go eastie, they wouldn't have signed off on the JCBA.

If the NWA pilots had thought the JCBA was a bad deal, 87% of them wouldn't have voted in favor of it.

If the DAL work rules are weak kneed, why did the NWA MEC file a grievance because DAL work rules and trip rigs weren't instituted until bid period 5?

Action speaks louder than words and your and Carl's rhetoric just doesn't match up with the actions taken by the NWA pilots. Actions which were based on a reasonable assessment of the contractual the gains the JCBA provided. Your rhetoric and Carl's, comes across as petty and groundless, not at all supported by the the actions of the NWA pilots or NWA MEC.

While you may be stuck in the divisive politics of the past, I'm glad to see that most fNWA pilots have moved on.

Where we do agree is on the quality of the DTW reps. They are top notch and will represent DTW and DAL pilots well.

NuGuy

Hi Carl,

I agree. I posted a number of responses to absolutely giddy West guys about not counting their chickens after the appeal to the Ninth.

The Ninth is extremely unpredictable. The rulling essentally points out that binding really ISN'T binding because:

1) It is an INTERNAL process by the union, and;

2) It can be undone/superceeded by further negotiations, which may or may not be similar in structure to the original result.

This as ALWAYS been the case, but it took this court ruling to illustrate this to the braintrust here at APC.

Once the result wasn't palatable for the majority of the pilots, and the inevitable happened. Both sides have acted like petulant children. BUT, should they negotiate another list with the company, and it MEETS the rather broad interpretation of DFR, then the legal requirements will have been met.

Sure, the West can sue again in Phoenix, and again it will be appealed...to the Ninth. Should the negotiated list fall within the wide chasm of what the court considers "fair", then it's over and done.

Personally, I think this is a watershed case in the processing of seniority list integrations. It showed that an unpalatable result can be challeneged, and successfully IF you have the horsepower (IE the majority) on your side.

Of course, this puts a chink in the "if you belong to ALPA, you are guaranteed a good result vs a non-ALPA carrier". armor. The TWA/APA result was expected. You had 2,000 vs 10,000, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see that was going to be a steamroller.

But here we have a virtual start-up union fight the big dog to a draw.

Some of the true believers are a bit upset because it shows that there IS life outside of ALPA, so naturally they're going to come down on the West side. Because it stands for the status quo and shows "the system works".

But according to some rumors I've been hearing, some DAL guys are starting to figure that there is life outside, too....

Nu

shiznit

First, you guys need to take this off the US Airways thread and take it back to a DAL themed thread.

Second, BOTH sides brought things to the table and BOTH sides were "weak kneed" in others.

Third, there is only ONE side now at Delta, time to move on.

Carl Spackler

If that was correct, you would be too. But my rate was 182 * 75 equals 13,650. My rate after joining the new Delta moved up to 191 * 70 equals 13,370. 13,370 is less than 13,650. My current rate is indeed 208, but I guess in your world, I wasn't supposed to count the annual increases that we had in our old contract...right?

Wrong again. There's no difference. 6 days of short call can be followed up with a 13 day trip. I've done it. You're still working 18 days.

Offset by the loss of SLI instructors and management types. I'm still in the same position.

No we don't. See above.

Not at all. Relative positions and bidding power have not changed.

They never were. Since they were granted Date of Hire, they came in to a position at the top of the bid list. The only people that were reservists are the ones who bid reserve. And when they did, they were at the top of the reserve list.

Try sticking to stuff you actually know something about. For example, how best to make the company's position known.

Carl

Carl Spackler

It's here because some of the usual suspects at DAL called members of another union vicious names for fighting a fight that they truly believe. These same DAL guys would never fight any fight unless their management told them to fight. I think those cowardly folks have no business advising another union about anything. They should stay out of their business.

That is true.

"Time to move on" seems to be code for "stop talking about things that show our weaknesses." I don't do that. Knowing where you're weak is the only way to ever get stronger. Pretending that everything is rosy, is a way to stay stuck.

Carl

NuGuy

Yawn. This has been debunked now for a long time as code for "Shut up and row".

It ranks right up there with "But you got a pay raise" and "You can bid 'better' bases".

You guys need to get some newer buzzwords/catchphrases. Only so many trains can leave the station....

Nu

shiznit

I don't disagree that some of the perceived benefits aren't as rosy as it seems, I'm definitely not in the "shut up and row type" at all.

Thankfully there has been turnover at the LEC level in ATL and LAX, with more to come as we get towards the time to start negotiating. There isn't a pilot I've flown with who is content with what the company has put out, I have no doubt the average line pilot based in the PMDAL bases are ready to say "OK, whatever you want Ed and Richard". These guys are p1ssed and ready to be "made whole" from the bankruptcy, as you are too.

slowplay

When you go to DragonCon, what costume do you wear? Red-Tailed Caped Avenger or something else?