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Old 06-04-2010, 04:58 PM   #11  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike View Post
Yes, USAPA won in a 2 to 1 decision by the 9th Circuit but it is not about the seniority list. The court was ruling on the "ripeness" of the case, i.e. had the West pilots actually been harmed by USAPA's actions so far. The majority said that no harm had occurred yet due to the lack of a joint contract with USAPA's DOH seniority list in that contract. So basically we have to be f###ed before we are harmed. The dissenting judge has some very interesting comments so we will see what happens next.

I just printed out my 26 page copy and I will be going through it carefully but really, this does not change anything. The company accepted the Nicolau list and any attempt by USAPA to bring forth a contract with anythging other than relative seniority will land them back in court with no question as to the ripeness of the case. In the meantime we just get on with the job and life.

Here is the decision if you are interested:

America West Pilots Protective Alliance (AWAPPA)
Looks like the decision is password protected from your union site. Do you have a direct link?
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:28 PM   #12  
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Default Ninth Circuit deals hammerblow to West pilots

Those who claim this decision brings little change are either in denial or guilty of wishful thinking. Here are some of the consequences of this reversal:

1. USAPA may now negotiate for a contract with a seniority system that is NOT the Nicolau award.

2. West pilots may not sue for damages until AFTER a joint contract is ratified by the whole pilot group.

3. There is no certainty that USAPA will be found guilty of DFR in the next trial.

4. Judge Wake may not be the judge in the next trial.

5. The next trial will take YEARS to come to a conclusion, while USAirways operates under a seniority system ratified by a majority of its pilots.

6. The Addington plaintiffs will receive no reimbursement from USAPA, and will have to pay out of their own pockets again for a lengthy and expensive series of motions, hearings, suits, and appeals before this matter is finally settled.

Although not a final settlement in favor of USAPA, this deals a hammer blow to the West pilots’ hope of enjoying the benefits of Nicolau any time soon, and places the final outcome in doubt.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:43 PM   #13  
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Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
Those who claim this decision brings little change are either in denial or guilty of wishful thinking. Here are some of the consequences of this reversal:

1. USAPA may now negotiate for a contract with a seniority system that is NOT the Nicolau award.
I guess binding doesn't mean binding....
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:05 AM   #14  
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Here is the direct link:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...4/09-16564.pdf

The majority said the claim was not ripe. They used the seniority issue to base their decision on the fact that because there was no contract in place there was no definite seniority list. The majority said that this was all a contingency (8006 - 8007) para 5. Thus they did not want to set a precedential ruling on a case that they felt had not progressed to a definite contract status that harmed the West, even though that was the stated goal of USAPA (8009) para 9.

The court did not take into account that the Nicolau award has been accepted by the company. Footnote 3 on page 8008 says that "USAPA is at least free to abandon the Nicolau award as was it's predecessor, ALPA." ALPA was not free to abandon the award and they did not do so because Prater eventually did submit it to the company and Parker did accept it.

Footnote 1 on page 8008 does state by the majority that "By deferring judgicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members - both East and West - in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified." So USAPA is still under the judicial gun to negotiate a contract that has the West pilot's interests in mind. They are free to try to get their DOH seniority list put in the joint contract but they will be liable for a DFR suit if they do. Also, since the company has accepted the Nic award the company will in the future be liable for damages to the West pilots as well, if the West pilots are found to be harmed by USAPA's future actions.

We realize that we have to pay for all this. We will be raising funds to continue the fight since we are really close to justice. The bottom line is that all 3 justices plus Judge Wake felt that the West pilots have been harmed or have the potential to be harmed by USAPA; the two 9th judges felt that the timing was not right for the DFR case to be settled and they were not going to set a precedent in this case. Again, this case was about timing, not whether we had a valid case or not. USAPA can spin this all they want but in the end they still have to represent the West pilots in a manner that does not hurt the West.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:19 AM   #15  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
Those who claim this decision brings little change are either in denial or guilty of wishful thinking. Here are some of the consequences of this reversal:..
1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
USAPA may now negotiate for a contract with a seniority system that is NOT the Nicolau award..

Yes, that is correct, however, they lead themselves right into a DFR suit if they do.


2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
West pilots may not sue for damages until AFTER a joint contract is ratified by the whole pilot group..
Yep, that's the ripeness thing, however, the closer we are to a joint contract the closer we are to ripeness. Thsi case could be reopened if there is a TA with a DOH list.



3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
There is no certainty that USAPA will be found guilty of DFR in the next trial..
There is no certainty in anything, yet we have had all justices in the case say that the West pilots have been hurt by USAPA. And there are internal USAPA actions subsequent to the trial that keep feeding fuel to our fire.

4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
Judge Wake may not be the judge in the next trial..
Does not matter who the judge is, we won the district case with a jury present.


5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
The next trial will take YEARS to come to a conclusion, while USAirways operates under a seniority system ratified by a majority of its pilots..
No, this will be expedited as well. there are a lot of judicial issues in play and we have already set a record for a hearing in a federal court. We have an injunction that will be set aside but could quickly be brought back in place. The big trick in these cases is getting the initial hearing to take place. That has happened already.

6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
The Addington plaintiffs will receive no reimbursement from USAPA, and will have to pay out of their own pockets again for a lengthy and expensive series of motions, hearings, suits, and appeals before this matter is finally settled..
Again, this does not matter. There are over 1000 donors to the Addington fund.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiwaymiles View Post
Although not a final settlement in favor of USAPA, this deals a hammer blow to the West pilots’ hope of enjoying the benefits of Nicolau any time soon, and places the final outcome in doubt.
We were not going to get anything done anyway as long as the East is willing to live under LOA 93 and not negotiate a contract.
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:15 AM   #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike View Post
We were not going to get anything done anyway as long as the East is willing to live under LOA 93 and not negotiate a contract.
Bingo.

From what I can gather from the USAirways financials, large contract gains really aren't in the picture right now, anyway, which combined with this ruling, if not overturned, would put the East pilots in a position to just camp out and wait rather than meaningfully negotiate.

If airline management can drag out negotiations for 5-7 years with a pilot group that WANTS a contract, imagine how long they could drag it out with a pilot group that really didn't WANT a new contract anytime soon if they can't get what they want for seniority issues...

I have a feeling we're going to be here 10 years from now before we're discussing the FINAL outcome of all this. What a cluster*******!
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:29 AM   #17  
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Are you appealing for an En Bank hearing?
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:03 AM   #18  
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Sounds like the best thing for Parker to do at this point is go to BK and force a contract/seniority list that's best for the company.
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:19 AM   #19  
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There will never be agreement between the 2 sides without a gun to the head (another bankruptcy filing). Even that probably would be challenged the second the company leaves bankruptcy. Honestly I don't think it will get solved until all the original East pilots are retired and there is nobody left to fight. Good luck.
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:49 AM   #20  
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The Easties should temper their exuberance. If this decision stands then what is to prevent the company from disregarding binding arbitration that is favorable to labor?
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