US Airways Appeal
#11
Yes, USAPA won in a 2 to 1 decision by the 9th Circuit but it is not about the seniority list. The court was ruling on the "ripeness" of the case, i.e. had the West pilots actually been harmed by USAPA's actions so far. The majority said that no harm had occurred yet due to the lack of a joint contract with USAPA's DOH seniority list in that contract. So basically we have to be f###ed before we are harmed. The dissenting judge has some very interesting comments so we will see what happens next.
I just printed out my 26 page copy and I will be going through it carefully but really, this does not change anything. The company accepted the Nicolau list and any attempt by USAPA to bring forth a contract with anythging other than relative seniority will land them back in court with no question as to the ripeness of the case. In the meantime we just get on with the job and life.
Here is the decision if you are interested:
America West Pilots Protective Alliance (AWAPPA)
I just printed out my 26 page copy and I will be going through it carefully but really, this does not change anything. The company accepted the Nicolau list and any attempt by USAPA to bring forth a contract with anythging other than relative seniority will land them back in court with no question as to the ripeness of the case. In the meantime we just get on with the job and life.
Here is the decision if you are interested:
America West Pilots Protective Alliance (AWAPPA)
#12
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 23
Ninth Circuit deals hammerblow to West pilots
Those who claim this decision brings little change are either in denial or guilty of wishful thinking. Here are some of the consequences of this reversal:
1. USAPA may now negotiate for a contract with a seniority system that is NOT the Nicolau award.
2. West pilots may not sue for damages until AFTER a joint contract is ratified by the whole pilot group.
3. There is no certainty that USAPA will be found guilty of DFR in the next trial.
4. Judge Wake may not be the judge in the next trial.
5. The next trial will take YEARS to come to a conclusion, while USAirways operates under a seniority system ratified by a majority of its pilots.
6. The Addington plaintiffs will receive no reimbursement from USAPA, and will have to pay out of their own pockets again for a lengthy and expensive series of motions, hearings, suits, and appeals before this matter is finally settled.
Although not a final settlement in favor of USAPA, this deals a hammer blow to the West pilots’ hope of enjoying the benefits of Nicolau any time soon, and places the final outcome in doubt.
1. USAPA may now negotiate for a contract with a seniority system that is NOT the Nicolau award.
2. West pilots may not sue for damages until AFTER a joint contract is ratified by the whole pilot group.
3. There is no certainty that USAPA will be found guilty of DFR in the next trial.
4. Judge Wake may not be the judge in the next trial.
5. The next trial will take YEARS to come to a conclusion, while USAirways operates under a seniority system ratified by a majority of its pilots.
6. The Addington plaintiffs will receive no reimbursement from USAPA, and will have to pay out of their own pockets again for a lengthy and expensive series of motions, hearings, suits, and appeals before this matter is finally settled.
Although not a final settlement in favor of USAPA, this deals a hammer blow to the West pilots’ hope of enjoying the benefits of Nicolau any time soon, and places the final outcome in doubt.
#13
I guess binding doesn't mean binding....
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,481
Here is the direct link:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...4/09-16564.pdf
The majority said the claim was not ripe. They used the seniority issue to base their decision on the fact that because there was no contract in place there was no definite seniority list. The majority said that this was all a contingency (8006 - 8007) para 5. Thus they did not want to set a precedential ruling on a case that they felt had not progressed to a definite contract status that harmed the West, even though that was the stated goal of USAPA (8009) para 9.
The court did not take into account that the Nicolau award has been accepted by the company. Footnote 3 on page 8008 says that "USAPA is at least free to abandon the Nicolau award as was it's predecessor, ALPA." ALPA was not free to abandon the award and they did not do so because Prater eventually did submit it to the company and Parker did accept it.
Footnote 1 on page 8008 does state by the majority that "By deferring judgicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members - both East and West - in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified." So USAPA is still under the judicial gun to negotiate a contract that has the West pilot's interests in mind. They are free to try to get their DOH seniority list put in the joint contract but they will be liable for a DFR suit if they do. Also, since the company has accepted the Nic award the company will in the future be liable for damages to the West pilots as well, if the West pilots are found to be harmed by USAPA's future actions.
We realize that we have to pay for all this. We will be raising funds to continue the fight since we are really close to justice. The bottom line is that all 3 justices plus Judge Wake felt that the West pilots have been harmed or have the potential to be harmed by USAPA; the two 9th judges felt that the timing was not right for the DFR case to be settled and they were not going to set a precedent in this case. Again, this case was about timing, not whether we had a valid case or not. USAPA can spin this all they want but in the end they still have to represent the West pilots in a manner that does not hurt the West.
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...4/09-16564.pdf
The majority said the claim was not ripe. They used the seniority issue to base their decision on the fact that because there was no contract in place there was no definite seniority list. The majority said that this was all a contingency (8006 - 8007) para 5. Thus they did not want to set a precedential ruling on a case that they felt had not progressed to a definite contract status that harmed the West, even though that was the stated goal of USAPA (8009) para 9.
The court did not take into account that the Nicolau award has been accepted by the company. Footnote 3 on page 8008 says that "USAPA is at least free to abandon the Nicolau award as was it's predecessor, ALPA." ALPA was not free to abandon the award and they did not do so because Prater eventually did submit it to the company and Parker did accept it.
Footnote 1 on page 8008 does state by the majority that "By deferring judgicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members - both East and West - in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified." So USAPA is still under the judicial gun to negotiate a contract that has the West pilot's interests in mind. They are free to try to get their DOH seniority list put in the joint contract but they will be liable for a DFR suit if they do. Also, since the company has accepted the Nic award the company will in the future be liable for damages to the West pilots as well, if the West pilots are found to be harmed by USAPA's future actions.
We realize that we have to pay for all this. We will be raising funds to continue the fight since we are really close to justice. The bottom line is that all 3 justices plus Judge Wake felt that the West pilots have been harmed or have the potential to be harmed by USAPA; the two 9th judges felt that the timing was not right for the DFR case to be settled and they were not going to set a precedent in this case. Again, this case was about timing, not whether we had a valid case or not. USAPA can spin this all they want but in the end they still have to represent the West pilots in a manner that does not hurt the West.
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,481
Yes, that is correct, however, they lead themselves right into a DFR suit if they do.
2.
3.
4. Does not matter who the judge is, we won the district case with a jury present.
5.
6.
We were not going to get anything done anyway as long as the East is willing to live under LOA 93 and not negotiate a contract.
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: The Gup...
Posts: 68
From what I can gather from the USAirways financials, large contract gains really aren't in the picture right now, anyway, which combined with this ruling, if not overturned, would put the East pilots in a position to just camp out and wait rather than meaningfully negotiate.
If airline management can drag out negotiations for 5-7 years with a pilot group that WANTS a contract, imagine how long they could drag it out with a pilot group that really didn't WANT a new contract anytime soon if they can't get what they want for seniority issues...
I have a feeling we're going to be here 10 years from now before we're discussing the FINAL outcome of all this. What a cluster*******!
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 1,020
There will never be agreement between the 2 sides without a gun to the head (another bankruptcy filing). Even that probably would be challenged the second the company leaves bankruptcy. Honestly I don't think it will get solved until all the original East pilots are retired and there is nobody left to fight. Good luck.
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