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Military RW to FW ATP

Old 02-19-2017, 10:51 PM
  #1  
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: military rotary wing, dual seat
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Default Military RW to FW ATP

Ok....I just joined the forum, have started reading up as much as I can here and at jetcareers.com. I've still got some questions but first some background on me.

-Army RW pilot with a little over 2k hours
-19 years of service, can retire next year at age 38
-never once thought of getting out but quite frankly, it's fiscally irresponsible not to look at the options out there.

I keep seeing these programs that are spooling up, such as the envoy and piedmont military rw transitions. I have my faa cfi/cfii for commercial rw. Other than that, I've got 6 hours I did in pursuit of my private fw. That's it. So from my reading, I meet the 750 hour requirement but still need to go to the official training to get the 250 hours for multi-engine PIC.

Unlike many of the commissioned guys I see do write ups here about the transition, I wouldn't be taking a nearly 50% pay cut starting off so it wouldn't be quite so painful.

I do have two issues though;

1. Would like to stay in for 5 more years to improve my retirement by $20k annually. That seems too good to pass up.
2. The only thing that would make me pass up option 1 is taking one of the contracting jobs I'm contacted about monthly ($260k with $100k tax free).

Doing the option 2 would give me a nice cushion for the first few years of low pay.

My questions that I need to find out (via you guys as common knowledge or via the recruiters are

1. Will these jobs (regionals and majors) last that much longer? I have to imagine they'll start filling up faster now with these RW programs.

2. How does this process work as far as hour requirements? R-ATP is 250 (after my 750 rw that I already have.) Where does that 250 come from? Not the rules but where will I be flying that? I can't imagine I'll be in flight school for 250 hrs.

3. With each promotion you get to stay at the bottom. Ok, well is there ANYTHING you get to select when you start. I'm personally interested in staying in one spot, wherever that may be. So what are my chances as the new guy selecting my duty location. And from what I've read, I need to make sure it's got spots that I can grow into I'd I switch to the parent company/major.

3. I get minimum monthly hours, but is there overtime (and if so advantages?l

4. What's main line vs reserve? Is reserve just the bench warmer each flight who gets called in if someone didn't feel like it?

So I basically start this job at $38k, with places offering $17k or so bonuses...in 2-3 years, Blanco, cpt? Then the chances come for the majors and starting all over again (which I actually find very entertaining).

Any other questions you guys wish you had asked period you committed. Thanks ahead of time
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Old 02-20-2017, 05:11 AM
  #2  
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post
Ok....I just joined the forum, have started reading up as much as I can here and at jetcareers.com. I've still got some questions but first some background on me.

-Army RW pilot with a little over 2k hours
-19 years of service, can retire next year at age 38
-never once thought of getting out but quite frankly, it's fiscally irresponsible not to look at the options out there.

I keep seeing these programs that are spooling up, such as the envoy and piedmont military rw transitions. I have my faa cfi/cfii for commercial rw. Other than that, I've got 6 hours I did in pursuit of my private fw. That's it. So from my reading, I meet the 750 hour requirement but still need to go to the official training to get the 250 hours for multi-engine PIC.

Unlike many of the commissioned guys I see do write ups here about the transition, I wouldn't be taking a nearly 50% pay cut starting off so it wouldn't be quite so painful.

I do have two issues though;

1. Would like to stay in for 5 more years to improve my retirement by $20k annually. That seems too good to pass up.
2. The only thing that would make me pass up option 1 is taking one of the contracting jobs I'm contacted about monthly ($260k with $100k tax free).

Doing the option 2 would give me a nice cushion for the first few years of low pay.

My questions that I need to find out (via you guys as common knowledge or via the recruiters are

1. Will these jobs (regionals and majors) last that much longer? I have to imagine they'll start filling up faster now with these RW programs.

2. How does this process work as far as hour requirements? R-ATP is 250 (after my 750 rw that I already have.) Where does that 250 come from? Not the rules but where will I be flying that? I can't imagine I'll be in flight school for 250 hrs.

3. With each promotion you get to stay at the bottom. Ok, well is there ANYTHING you get to select when you start. I'm personally interested in staying in one spot, wherever that may be. So what are my chances as the new guy selecting my duty location. And from what I've read, I need to make sure it's got spots that I can grow into I'd I switch to the parent company/major.

3. I get minimum monthly hours, but is there overtime (and if so advantages?l

4. What's main line vs reserve? Is reserve just the bench warmer each flight who gets called in if someone didn't feel like it?

So I basically start this job at $38k, with places offering $17k or so bonuses...in 2-3 years, Blanco, cpt? Then the chances come for the majors and starting all over again (which I actually find very entertaining).

Any other questions you guys wish you had asked period you committed. Thanks ahead of time
250 is airplane PIC. Not AMEL specific. Just need 25 hours multi for an ATP, as your initial training can credit 25 sim hours to the 50 requirement.

$20k a year for 5 more years of service...think about it this way...you are losing 3-5 years of your highest earnings and highest seniority at a major before retirement. And once you hit year 1 pay (maybe 2 depending on the major) you will make more than you are making as a warrant, and beyond that you will make $20k more a year than if you are a w4/5. Your top earnings will be $250-$350k depending on where you go. Do you want to give that up for a guaranteed little bit higher pension? Most people would say you are giving up over a million dollars (probably more) worth of seniority and pay to get $20k a year extra. That's assuming nothing changes in this industry, which has historically been very cyclical. You have your guaranteed retirement already (or will). Time to go get a seniority number. Oh, and no one gives a hoot if you were a W3 or O6 when you are wearing a pilot uniform. Everyone is Mike or Bob. Your ego associated with your retirement rank should be a non-consideration, if that next w4/w5 is playing into your consideration.

I'll put it another way...people are leaving the AF with 15-17 years in and foregoing an O4/O5 retirement altogether because there is more money to be made long term here. They don't have the regional struggle to deal with, but you (will) have a retirement blanket already.

A line = a set schedule with trips for the month, assigned and bid for based on seniority the month prior. Reserve = you are on call (long call is 12-14 hour call out, short call is 2 or so hour call out). Normally with a line you get 14-17 days off a month and you get paid for the hours you fly/credit. Reserve 11-15 depending on your airline. Sometimes more. Reserves usually don't fly much, so they get paid a minimum of 70-76 hours a month (some more some less...airline specific) at their hourly rate. With good staffing you can not fly much and still get paid. Some months it's 8-12 hours for me if I don't want to work. You can pick up trips over and above your scheduledline, and at some airlines you can do the same on reserve. Just depends. Sometimes you can pick it up for 1.5-2x pay. There is more to pay/schedules than that but that's the gist.

Mainline is legacy airlines (big 3), regionals are feeders (just for clarification since you used main line above).

Sorry for the quick unproofed response typed on phone. Gotta go hit the beach.
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
. Oh, and no one gives a hoot if you were a W3 or O6 when you are wearing a pilot uniform. Everyone is Mike or Bob. Your ego associated with your retirement rank should be a non-consideration, if that next w4/w5 is playing into your consideration. .
Uh, sorry if that's how that statement came across.

It was supposed to point out the different pay scales at which the two groups retire, in that I would be much closer to the pay at my new job, and wouldn't start off taking a nearly $70,000 pay cut my first year like some of those guys have had to.

And thanks for the answers. You've already clarified several big things.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post

Thanks ahead of time
If you want to do it, then just DO IT! You can get a commercial FW add on in 50 hours then go for a CFI single engine add-on to build your total time. I would do that now while you are on active duty and when you get your 20 in you can make the decision to bail. As far as I am concerned, all you Rotorheads should have done an add-on years ago instead of procrastinating till the end of your career!
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post
Uh, sorry if that's how that statement came across.

And thanks for the answers. You've already clarified several big things.
No it didn't come across like that...I just wanted to point out that, while rank was something we always respected and wanted to seem to achieve more of in the military (to a point), it seems like it was forgotten about the day I got my dd214. So, while it may be enticing for monetary and/or pride reasons to take another promotion, the long term potential earnings loss by staying in, IMO, is way more significant than not getting another dot/line. The difference a month can have in seniority can be a huge game changer for QOL and pay...years makes a huge difference, especially in this hiring environment. I didn't have an appreciation for seniority until I got in the airlines. Seniority is everything.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:39 AM
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Also re bases, you go to an airline, and you go to the junior bases, or where they have openings. That's based solely on seniority. Regional bases open and close a lot. It's a gamble to pay to move to a base only for the base to close a year later. Happens. Airlines don't pay for moves like the military. Instead you get jumpseat privileges to get to work. This is why seniority matters. For most airlines, junior bases are in expensive undesirable areas (New York). There is no COLA or BAH adjustment like the mil. You can get lucky with timing and get to a senior base fairly quickly.l if things work out...or not. For me, I went to a (at the time) growing bottom feeder regional with a lot of movement and got based out West where I live in 1 month after training, where before our growth it took a year or two. you can usually pick your plane (doesn't matter), but picking your base means picking a company with junior bases where you want to live or commute to. I made less than if I went to a better regional, but I drove to work. Trying to line up a regional and mainline base option is impossible, since bases change, contracts change, and there's no real way to have any certainty you will be based in the same place for two airlines in the next 5-10 years (your timeline).

A lot of people go to the first major that calls. So if you live in Atlanta hoping for DL to call, and they never do, but AA does, what are you going to do? I'd move to an AA base. Or commute as a regional guy until you are at your destination airline, then move. That isn't easy from army bases though since our bases are not usually located near any normal place with an airline base. Not commuting makes the job 10x better. I'd move to a decent commute to a regional, or in base to a place you can hold fairly quickly, then move again for a major airline job to live in base. But that's just me. And I still commute across the country as I figure out my long term plan.

So, if I were in your shoes, I'd have the army pay for your retirement move to your desired regional home and base, once you figure that out, then pay out of pocket for your final move once you get on with a major. FWIW I have a friend who drove from Ft rucker to SAV then caught a flight to NY for his commute. Did that to and from work 4x a month. There are brutal commutes and easy commutes, and lots in between. As you look into this industry more, and start doing it, you'll figure it out.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:56 AM
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http://www.pilotdomiciles.com/pilot_...s-2-1-2017.png
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:44 PM
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Thanks for that link, Hobbit
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:11 PM
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Tattooguy, congratulations on a terrific Army Career. The promotion rates, as you know, are tough. Timing is everything in the airlines, so if there is a program to get you in the door now, I'd take the retirement and run vice missing out on a good opportunity for us Army Aviators. There is no guarantee the Envoy program will be around next year or in five years.

There are some recent posts on APTAP about the Envoy program, and it even looks like they will be hosting a recruiting event at Rucker (Dothan) soon.

As far as the contract flying goes, Columbia and AAR would provide you with the financial means and time off to pursue your FW ratings on your own. Also, $100K (I heard it is $108K this year) isn't tax free unless you spend 330+ days overseas or have your primary residence overseas. IRS.gov spells it out quite clear. One day short and you pay tax (State and Federal) on all of it. Guys do get caught skirting the rules and have to pay all back-taxes plus significant penalties. You will max out your social security tax, but the higher pay puts you in a significantly higher tax bracket.

Good Luck.

Above the Best!
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:02 AM
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Here is the "official" stuff for the PSA program. The school in Pensacola forwarded it on to a friend of mine, but it was originally sent out by PSA

Forwarded message below:
"I am a Pilot Recruiter from PSA Airlines reaching out to you because at some point in recent history you have inquired into a First Officer position, & more specifically a Rotor Transition Program leading to an FO position with our airline. Well, it is finally here!

PSA Airlines has recently partnered with Sky Warrior in Pensacola, FL & we are looking to start our first RTP class in mid-March. In order to be considered for our program, you will need to officially apply through our company website. Attend & panel interview in CLT where you will also learn more about PSA Airlines, our mission, the Rotor Transition Program, & how RTP costs are covered. After passing our panel interview we will place you in contact with our partnered school Sky Warrior to discuss class dates, & pursue final required ratings & flight times.

After your application has been screened & you are selected, you will be expected to provide copies of the following documents at the interview:

1. First Class Medical Certificate
2. Flying Licenses
3. Driver’s License
4. Passport
5. FCC Radio / Telephone License
6. Updated Resume
7. Logbook(s)
8. DD214 Member -4 document, or an official Armed Forces record showing current service.
9. An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school & received a rating qualification as a military pilot.

We understand that there are certain occasions where some of the documents may be in the mail such as an FCC license, & can waive some documents on a case by case basis. However, an official FO class date will not be given until all documents are accounted for. Please ensure you logbooks are in good shape. Logbooks Matter More Than You Think - Here's What You Need To Know | Boldmethod .

We are looking forward to meeting & working with you!

If you have any questions with regard to any of this please reach out & contact us.

V/R
XXXXX XXXXXX
CAPTAIN & PILOT RECRUITER
Mobile: (XXX) XXX-XXXX"
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