crewdawg

What do you propose they should have done...keep flying until another class A or someone dies? I'm not being inflammatory, but genuinely interested.

I don't know the full story, but it sounds as if many of their calls for help and change went unanswered. Sometimes the nuclear option is the only way to get stuff done. The fact that they were able to get buy in by the entire pilot cadre, says alot! How many of them voiced their concern and we're told to pound sand or shut up and color, my guess is quite a few. Leadership can't rock the boat AND get that next promotion!

I do agree that the media should be an absolute LAST resort but maybe it was needed to get the right eyes on the issue. Writing your congressman, better yet, having a squadron full of pilots showing up to a congressman's office might have been a good idea as well. That would send a pretty big message that there is something wrong. The fact is that nothing will make, crap get done and make a commander sweat, more than a congressman breathing down their neck.

This decision had to have weighed heavily on these guys mind and I'm sure it was a very hard decision. I applaud these officers for having the balls and the integrity to take a stand and do what's right for their students, themselves and Naval Aviation.

rickair7777

I don't know what to think, because I'm not privy to all of the deets.

A also think a "labor action" is a very slippery slope in the military context. I can envision a scenario where it might be appropriate but it's a pretty unlikely scenario.

It's entirely possible CANTRA screwed up, but where was all the intermediate management (DH, XO, CO, CMDR)? If it got to this point it seems to me the CO/CMDR should have been sufficiently informed to call a stand-down and then go see the boss to force the issue...they have a doctrinal mandate to do that sort of thing, rank-and-file JO's do not.

If the IP's truly exhausted all recourse before they went on strike then the whole CoC (at least above DH) is badly broken.

Might get the problem fixed, might even save lives but what are the ramifications for good order and discipline going forward?

BDGERJMN

I don't take your response as inflammatory, and I think this discussion is good and can definitely be had without flame spraying anyone.

No I'm not advocating anyone fly a jet they don't feel safe flying in a training environment and certainly not advocating folks fly until a Class A occurs. Bottom line, they didn't have consensus from the entire ready room, that's one of the issues I have with this. Some instructors continued to fly, while others organized the 'sick out'. If the CO's and the Commodore truly supported this effort as was reported by the media and anecdotally from folks within the Training Squadrons, then why didn't they ground the jets themselves, they own them. Why didn't the COs or Commodore tell CNATRA, "boss my guys aren't flying and here's why, I'm grounding the jets". If CNATRA's response was 'shut up and color' as was reported, bad on him for taking that approach. If that was the approach and it went unanswered, a simple note stating the jets are down until a fix is in place from the Commodore to the CNAF COS CC'ing CNATRA gets some attention and likely the same result. The Commodore could have requested an all hands call with the air boss to air the issue in an open forum, was that done? I don't know, but knowing the CNAF leadership as I do, I doubt the current air boss would have turned that down.

I agree that taking a stand and setting an example is good. In this case though, we just showed to a new crop of Naval Aviators getting set to go to the RAG and on to the Fleet that an organized 'sick out' was the preferred course of action while talking to the press 'off the record'. I don't agree that's the best example.

Obviously there are many opinions out there, mine is just one and who's to say its right. As I was reminded by a JO a few days ago, we're dealing with a different generation of young leaders; he was referring to millennials and stated that leadership needs to handle them differently. Jury is out on that one...perhaps the way we do business will change as a result of a new generation?

Mink

Was it a "sick out"? Or was it use of an ORM matrix and when the finally tally was reached certain IP's said, "Nope - risk is too great"

Neither here nor there, I guess. The end result was the same.

Grumble

I hear ya, and I know guys that had incidents. The T-45 however had these guys too scared to fly it. Guys being dragged out of cockpits, debilitating health issues, and at least one succesful ejection on stud/IP before they passed out... at low altitude. Histotoxic hypoxia, being poisoned by the system supposed to keep you alive.

These guys tried to work within the confines of the system, the system didn't work, and I don't blame them one bit for refusing to fly when that was their last option.

F4E Mx

'Aviator's Breathing Oxygen' is by mil-spec definition 99.5% oxygen and is essentially the same for the civilian world. Apparently this OBOGS system works by progressively filtering out nitrogen gas which increases the concentration of oxygen. This system then adjusts the percent of oxygen delivered to the pilot as a function of cockpit altitude. In the Honeywell system a cockpit with a pressure altitude of 15,000 feet would deliver filtered air with between 40% to 60% oxygen to the pilot. A cockpit at a pressure altitude of 35,000 feet would have an acceptable range of between 92% and 100% oxygen. Doesn't take much to ask what happens if the regulator doesn't adjust the oxygen percentage increase with increases in cockpit altitude, or if even a worn system would be capable of delivering 92% at altitude. I don't see how they got away from the 99.5% oxygen purity standard to begin with.

rickair7777

There's a difference between 99.5% O2 and 99.5% "purity".

The former would be 99.5% O2 and 0.5% N2, argon, and a few other gases (commonly know as "air"). Perfectly breathable and safe.

The later would imply 0.5% "non-air" contamination, which would probably be bad (ie CO, hydrocarbons, etc).

Semantics.

UAL T38 Phlyer

The problem with OBOGS (and "Fume Events" in the airliner world) are they do indeed work by reducing the amount of Nitrogen...from bleed air.

If the first-stage bearing in the engine compressor has a bad oil seal, jet turbine oil will be part of the bleed. On to the OBOGS it flows: Nitrogen gets removed; Oxygen and "trace gasses" such as CO2, Argon, Helium...and vaporized turbine oil...remain.

Jet turbine oils contain Tri-Cresyl Phosphate. It seems to be universally applied to turbine oils, and both stabilizes the viscosity at high temperatures, as well as makes it less flammable.

Unfortunately, Tri-Cresyl Phosphate works in the human body like many Phosphates do: as a nerve agent. It disrupts neuro-transmitters, and in high enough doses, causes death. Low doses can cause blindness, confusion, and other neurological symptoms.'

It can be easily absorbed through the skin; I would assume the lungs are more so. Every can of turbine oil I have handled carried a warning about TCP.

The military loves OBOGS because it saves weight and requires no logistical train like LOX does. As I understand it, the F-22 quietly got a small pressurized Oxygen bottle after the Alaska accident....but the brass fought it, as it cost money to install, took up critical space, and added weight.

MikeF16

Great post.

This brass is amongst us, I won't out the gentleman but the following anecdote is 100% true. On a separate FB group we were discussing how AGCAS had just saved its 1st pilot on a US F-16 (it had likely previously saved a UAE pilot). We were all talking about how great it was and a former F-16 OG/CC steps in and bemoans that we should've gotten an AESA RADAR instead of the AGCAS. In the very same discussion where the AGCAS had just saved a pilot's life. I think the quote was something along the lines of how everybody who thinks saving a pilot vs combat capability (ed note: that will probably never be used...) are a bunch of candy asses. He defended his undefendable position for a while until he realized absolutely nobody agreed with him and he just went away. Said individual works for my company and will likely end up on the 4th floor where he will continue to not GAS about the people who work for him. That is military "leadership".

Merle Dixon

Anyone consider this: Lt Pence is well aware of the OBOGs problem. Maybe one of his bro's got hypoxic. The IPs are furious at their cowardly chain of command doing nothing to fix the problem. The environment in the squadron is toxic. One evening Lt Pence makes a call, "Dad, you're not gonna believe this sh*t...." After 10 minutes, " Is mom there? Hi mom, I love you too. What was I talking to Dad about? Get this crap Mom..."

BOOM!