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Old 12-05-2017, 01:58 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Does that apply to military duty, or do you really have to be "resting"... which is hard to define legally on a good day.
The AF regulation wasn't set up to deal with multiple sources of employment or a mix of civilian and military flying.

The most basic application of the reg would be if you're scheduled to show at the squadron at 0600 to begin your fly day, you need to leave the building (be off duty) by 1800 the night before. What you did in those 12 hours wasn't specifically dictated. Some guys would consider themselves "off duty" while still on the premises if they were in the squadron gym working out or other leisure activities.

I don't think FARs address mixing civilian and military flying but I've never looked since it wasn't an issue for me. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that schedule Blackhawk described didn't comply with the spirit of any 121 rest requirements. I seriously doubt there was any FAR legal rest period free from duty between flights over the course of the two days of mixed mil/civ flying he described. One can argue legalities and definitions all day, but those don't change the fact that his schedule didn't allow opportunity for rest required by both civilian and military regulations.
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:05 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
I don't think FARs address mixing civilian and military flying but I've never looked since it wasn't an issue for me. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that schedule Blackhawk described didn't comply with the spirit of any 121 rest requirements. I seriously doubt there was any FAR legal rest period free from duty between flights over the course of the two days of mixed mil/civ flying he described. One can argue legalities and definitions all day, but those don't change the fact that his schedule didn't allow opportunity for rest required by both civilian and military regulations.
FARs only address 121/135 duty, what you do on your own time (including mil) doesn't count... legally.

Of course common sense must apply, and if you ball one up they're going to look real hard at what you were up to in the days prior. Documented lack of sleep opportunity would get you violated.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:00 PM
  #23  
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Legal vs. smart. 99% of the time it works every time...but the one time you have an accident/incident, you might have to explain your lack of common sense (and legal) rest. By the way, I've been on first year airline pay as a Traditional Reservist. My budget did not require me to ever go without real rest between either job in order to make ends meet.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:48 PM
  #24  
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I’m pretty certain AFFSA, who wrote the reg, would say being at work is NOT rest. I’ve been at AFFSA meetings on this subject.
Short story, I was late coming off an EAL trip, called my guard unit’s guard shack and left a message that I would need to be off the early go; came in for the noon brief. Two hours later, I was in chute joining the Caterpiller Club. You just never know, best of all the board found no supervisory error to the relief on the new Wing King.

I’d follow crew rest rules scrupulously.

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Old 12-05-2017, 07:26 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Does that apply to military duty, or do you really have to be "resting"...
No, you can come in and work, mission plan, etc, etc. Just no flying. I often see our cargo pilots at work looking very tired after a trip. They just crossed the big pond and then jump seated home. Up all night clearly.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:04 PM
  #26  
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Jeez lighten up folks.
1. I did not violate any FARs. Some of you need to read them.
2. Did not violate any Army or Guard regulations.
3. Always had plenty of rest. Never flew for the Guard if I did not. Usually had 6-7 hours sleep in a hotel plus a 3 hour nap before dutying in for Guard flying. I think 9-10 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period is more than sufficient. Far more than I ever got in my year of flying deployed when it was not uncommon to fly 14 days straight.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:14 AM
  #27  
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I figured it was 50/50 on how you would respond to this. You had the option to maybe do a mea culpa and just admit maybe it wasn't the best plan after all. That would have been the end of it. The fact that you presented this schedule you designed as something to be proud of to a bunch of experienced ANG/airline pilots and got some BS flags might give a wise man reason for pause. Going counter-offensive on multiple posts is just going to further highlight that lack of SA. If this plan is detailed in your power point brief, you might want to reconsider putting it on the slide titled "Things not to do".
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
I did not violate any FARs. Some of you need to read them.
No one accused you of violating any FARs, technically anyway. Regardless, relying on technicalities and legal loopholes doesn't make your plan a good one. I guarantee, if you had an incident, the NTSB report would at a minimum have listed your schedule as a finding potentially contributing to fatigue. Take a look at the findings in the Colgan accident.

Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
2. Did not violate any Army or Guard regulations.
I'll have to take your word on that since I know nothing about Army aviation regulations. What are the Army aviation rest requirements specifically? If you were a fixed wing AF/ANG pilots you would have been in violation, by any reasonable interpretation of that reg. You came on here soliciting schedule inputs to inform mil to civ transition pilots. If you only plan to offer your advice to other Army helo pilots, then have at it, I guess.
However, since the large majority of pilots transitioning to mixing airline and military schedules are fixed wing operators flying under AF and ANG regs, you might want to at least be aware of the reg differences. That way you're not standing up in front of a bunch of fighter pilots telling them how great it would be to fly a stand-up and turn to a 4v4 sortie that afternoon. Oh yeah, and then go show for another stand-up 4 hours after the debrief is over.

Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
Usually had 6-7 hours sleep in a hotel plus a 3 hour nap before dutying in for Guard flying. I think 9-10 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period is more than sufficient.
Anyone familiar with the NASA fatigue studies and/or first hand experience with fatigue inducing schedules knows there's a huge difference between 6 hours of sleep with a 3 hour nap hours later during non-normal sleep periods and 9 hours of proper sleep in at one time. I'd also question the 6-7 hour number you're throwing out based on the stand-up schedules I witnessed. I think you're relying on more technicalities talking about block to block time on your schedule rather than actual sleep time. When you block in at 2300 and have to show at 0500, that ain't 6 hours of sleep when you factor in transit time and the other time demands on a typical layover.

Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
Far more than I ever got in my year of flying deployed when it was not uncommon to fly 14 days straight.
Well, if those pax in the back of your RJ were instead willingly riding along in your Blackhawk on an operational mission, then that might have some bearing on the discussion. But they were paying for a safe ride from A to B by someone putting their safety as the number one priority, not optimizing their AFTP use.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:19 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
I figured it was 50/50 on how you would respond to this. You had the option to maybe do a mea culpa and just admit maybe it wasn't the best plan after all. That would have been the end of it. The fact that you presented this schedule you designed as something to be proud of to a bunch of experienced ANG/airline pilots and got some BS flags might give a wise man reason for pause. Going counter-offensive on multiple posts is just going to further highlight that lack of SA. If this plan is detailed in your power point brief, you might want to reconsider putting it on the slide titled "Things not to do".
No one accused you of violating any FARs, technically anyway. Regardless, relying on technicalities and legal loopholes doesn't make your plan a good one. I guarantee, if you had an incident, the NTSB report would at a minimum have listed your schedule as a finding potentially contributing to fatigue. Take a look at the findings in the Colgan accident.

I'll have to take your word on that since I know nothing about Army aviation regulations. What are the Army aviation rest requirements specifically? If you were a fixed wing AF/ANG pilots you would have been in violation, by any reasonable interpretation of that reg. You came on here soliciting schedule inputs to inform mil to civ transition pilots. If you only plan to offer your advice to other Army helo pilots, then have at it, I guess.
However, since the large majority of pilots transitioning to mixing airline and military schedules are fixed wing operators flying under AF and ANG regs, you might want to at least be aware of the reg differences. That way you're not standing up in front of a bunch of fighter pilots telling them how great it would be to fly a stand-up and turn to a 4v4 sortie that afternoon. Oh yeah, and then go show for another stand-up 4 hours after the debrief is over.


Anyone familiar with the NASA fatigue studies and/or first hand experience with fatigue inducing schedules knows there's a huge difference between 6 hours of sleep with a 3 hour nap hours later during non-normal sleep periods and 9 hours of proper sleep in at one time. I'd also question the 6-7 hour number you're throwing out based on the stand-up schedules I witnessed. I think you're relying on more technicalities talking about block to block time on your schedule rather than actual sleep time. When you block in at 2300 and have to show at 0500, that ain't 6 hours of sleep when you factor in transit time and the other time demands on a typical layover.

Well, if those pax in the back of your RJ were instead willingly riding along in your Blackhawk on an operational mission, then that might have some bearing on the discussion. But they were paying for a safe ride from A to B by someone putting their safety as the number one priority, not optimizing their AFTP use.
I’m sure some day, if I eat my Wheaties and work hard, I will be good enough to walk in your shadow.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:06 AM
  #29  
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As a disinterested observer who served in both the AF and Army I will say the Army has a wildly different native attitude towards fatigue and risk assessment. Not a criticism, just reality.

Blackhawk you seem to be taking offense and I'm not sure why. Reality is if you presented that plan to a room full of folks with an AF flying background, heavy or pointy nose, you'd get a lot of weird looks. Which is why you're getting a lot of comments from folks here questioning the wisdom and/or legality of what you said you did.

I've read a lot of mishap reports, if you were involved in an AF mishap and background turned up the flying/rest schedule you described....that would make up a very large part of the report. Maybe not in the Army, can't say.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
As a disinterested observer who served in both the AF and Army I will say the Army has a wildly different native attitude towards fatigue and risk assessment. Not a criticism, just reality.

Blackhawk you seem to be taking offense and I'm not sure why. Reality is if you presented that plan to a room full of folks with an AF flying background, heavy or pointy nose, you'd get a lot of weird looks. Which is why you're getting a lot of comments from folks here questioning the wisdom and/or legality of what you said you did.

I've read a lot of mishap reports, if you were involved in an AF mishap and background turned up the flying/rest schedule you described....that would make up a very large part of the report. Maybe not in the Army, can't say.
I guess I’m reminded why, when I worked in Special Operations, we much preferred working with Marines versus Air Force. Marines would find a way to safely accomplish a mission. The Air Force, in spite of numerous safety protocols, would still look for a way to decline a mission.
Flying 3-5 hours a day with 8-10 hours of actual sleep time; time to still go for a jog and do other stuff; 3 days on and 4-6 days off is hardly a grueling schedule and the fact that Air Force pilots view it as such indicates one of the underlying issues I had doing joint ops with them. That and being told by the Air Force that a sorty was a successful mission.

Last edited by Blackhawk; 12-06-2017 at 09:31 AM.
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