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Old 12-03-2017, 03:02 PM   #21
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Assuming they go to heavies, the first night AR will sort it all out.

GF[/QUOTE]

What this guy said. Have a friend that got me in the C-17 sim. Sim operator, and IP in the right seat for support.

The best I could do was 12 feet to the probe. Its hard work. On the other hand, I did land on the assault approach.

Awacs
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:20 AM   #22
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I saw that quite a bit with Navs/EWOs/WSOs of all flavors. Most of them did very, very well in UPT.

Their knowledge and familiarity with AF flying regs and procedures, as well as general air sense, comm, etc, gave them a natural leg up.

."
I wasn't the 3000 hour regional guy, but was a 700 hour CFI. I will agree that about 3-4 rides into T-37s I realized "okay--I am not going to wash out. I can get this..." And primary was...fun. I still screwed up stuff, stressed like crazy, and at no point did I think I was head and shoulders above my peers--but at that point the outcome (wings) was never in doubt.

T-38s...well...holy *(&. Like everyone else I was told it wouldn't help, and I was smart enough to believe them. The good news was the confidence gained in tweets and staying off SMS and bad-boy lists probably gave me enough "halo" to skate a bit when someone else might have busted. I still managed to bust the contact check for TP stalls (any late 80s guys from CBM remember "Skeletor" May? He got me too....) But yeah...some of our folks who just hung on "bloomed" in the T-38 and ended up graduating near the top of the class. Some of us who never worked that hard in tweets found out what being way behind an jet felt like, when others already figured out how to catch back up.

My thoughts are some GA can help...but show up with an open mind and closed mouth. Some basic acro and spins would be a good start. Don't try to make everything you are taught "reframe" to your reference, but instead just roll and do it the military way. A few attempts and you'll understand why they do it that way and the sooner you just adapt the easier you'll be ready for the new stuff.

Those WSOs who showed up didn't just have air sense, they have Air Force sense. They knew how things worked, and how to be an officer, and what a CBPO did, and what a flight commander did, and how to play crud, etc etc. Sometimes I think the challenge (and fun!) of UPT wasn't just learning to fly, but to work in the (almost) real Air Force. My own example--when I went to IEU to get my flight suits on day 2 or 3 of class, my AF brat friend laughed at me for stepping out in my flight suit which I had put on OVER my blues. Honestly--I had never worn one, never worked where guys wore them, and thought they were like the coveralls I saw my dad wear on the farm. So I stepped out with them over my blues...to a lot of laughs. Just learning to be Air Force was tough for me--spinning a tweet was no big freakin' deal. A few years later I was a FAC in Desert Storm, and not long after that sitting alert in a 4x4 loaded F-15 in Alaska. So--I had a LOT to learn--fast--and it wasn't just about flying. Fortunately those people who taught me were some of the best and greatest I've ever met, and a few are (thankfully) still friends even now.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
I wasn't the 3000 hour regional guy, but was a 700 hour CFI. I will agree that about 3-4 rides into T-37s I realized "okay--I am not going to wash out. I can get this..." And primary was...fun. I still screwed up stuff, stressed like crazy, and at no point did I think I was head and shoulders above my peers--but at that point the outcome (wings) was never in doubt.

T-38s...well...holy *(&. Like everyone else I was told it wouldn't help, and I was smart enough to believe them. The good news was the confidence gained in tweets and staying off SMS and bad-boy lists probably gave me enough "halo" to skate a bit when someone else might have busted. I still managed to bust the contact check for TP stalls (any late 80s guys from CBM remember "Skeletor" May? He got me too....) But yeah...some of our folks who just hung on "bloomed" in the T-38 and ended up graduating near the top of the class. Some of us who never worked that hard in tweets found out what being way behind an jet felt like, when others already figured out how to catch back up.

My thoughts are some GA can help...but show up with an open mind and closed mouth. Some basic acro and spins would be a good start. Don't try to make everything you are taught "reframe" to your reference, but instead just roll and do it the military way. A few attempts and you'll understand why they do it that way and the sooner you just adapt the easier you'll be ready for the new stuff.

Those WSOs who showed up didn't just have air sense, they have Air Force sense. They knew how things worked, and how to be an officer, and what a CBPO did, and what a flight commander did, and how to play crud, etc etc. Sometimes I think the challenge (and fun!) of UPT wasn't just learning to fly, but to work in the (almost) real Air Force. My own example--when I went to IEU to get my flight suits on day 2 or 3 of class, my AF brat friend laughed at me for stepping out in my flight suit which I had put on OVER my blues. Honestly--I had never worn one, never worked where guys wore them, and thought they were like the coveralls I saw my dad wear on the farm. So I stepped out with them over my blues...to a lot of laughs. Just learning to be Air Force was tough for me--spinning a tweet was no big freakin' deal. A few years later I was a FAC in Desert Storm, and not long after that sitting alert in a 4x4 loaded F-15 in Alaska. So--I had a LOT to learn--fast--and it wasn't just about flying. Fortunately those people who taught me were some of the best and greatest I've ever met, and a few are (thankfully) still friends even now.
I agree with a lot of this, I showed up as a 0 time guy, went to IFS barely knowing what an attitude indicator was, and made it through UPT just fine. In my class, the guy that was a commercial pilot washed out, and the guy who went to the academy to get a free education, made a spontaneous decision close to graduation to become a pilot and won all the awards in UPT. It's hard to say who's going to do well sometimes.

Like Albeif, I thought UPT was stressful, and adding the officership part to it just added on more pressure if you were new to the service and learning how everything worked. It was the best worst year of my life, and in a way I'm glad I went in with no flying time, I was a clean slate.

Last edited by Dirty30; 12-05-2017 at 05:57 AM. Reason: Typos
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:12 AM   #24
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As far as the other side of UPT, the T-1, I'd say this program will work fine. All the guard/reserve guys I had with prior experience did well, and we're usually top of class. An easier solution would be to allow students to proficiency advance, and skip some sorties once theyre ready. It's basically what the old FWQ program.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:29 AM   #25
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Albie,
Whenever I fly with a fighter bro at UPS I'll ask about his flying experience prior to UPT and the vast majority had previous time. You hit the nail on the head with your "Halo" comment. Those studs who were quickly crowned with a halo in tweets really had to screw up bad to lose it. I went to CBM (87-04)and flew with "Skeletor" before he was an examiner. He's at my airline now.
BTW have you read Ray Wright's book, "If you ain't a Pilot". It's about UPT at CBM and Skeletor is mentioned often. Best book I read in the last 5 years.
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:45 PM   #26
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Albie,
Whenever I fly with a fighter bro at UPS I'll ask about his flying experience prior to UPT and the vast majority had previous time.
Hmmm - not my experience in my circle. A lot of guys I flew with in the Eagle on AD and especially in the ANG were zero hour types (or close to it), myself included. I muddled my way through Tweets and the light bulb came on early in the T-38.

I think it boils down to the individual. Our 3000 hour commuter pilot was lucky to end up with wings. Some guys can really benefit from and apply prior flight experience without running into issue with prior habits or techniques while other clearly cannot. I would guess that there are probably less zero hour guys who make it if they don't get a light bulb moment and struggle all the way. The zero guys who shine are probably more like Forest Gump. "Damn Gump! That was the best rejoin I've ever seen, why did you fly it like that?"
"Because you told me to."
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:01 PM   #27
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http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/yo...-lead-to-that/

CFIs skipping T6s, enlisted pilots...seems like big blue is really reaching here. Lots of ways they could fix the shortage without these extreme measures IMO.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:06 PM   #28
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http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/yo...-lead-to-that/

CFIs skipping T6s, enlisted pilots...seems like big blue is really reaching here. Lots of ways they could fix the shortage without these extreme measures IMO.
What is the point of enlisted pilots? Not saving money.... any who can meet the standards will be off to bigger and better things just as quickly as officers.

Do they want pilots without degrees? Typically this kind of program is so competitive that the winners have degrees anyway. Plus the airlines will likely overlook a missing degree if you have fighter time.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:42 PM   #29
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Wont the demand for additional duties, and non-flyingvassignmrnts, increase if there are enlisted pilots and fewer officer pilots?? Or are they going to change the requirements for non-flying officer/pilot assignments so that the enlisted pilots can do them?
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:28 PM   #30
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What is the point of enlisted pilots? Not saving money.... any who can meet the standards will be off to bigger and better things just as quickly as officers.

Do they want pilots without degrees? Typically this kind of program is so competitive that the winners have degrees anyway. Plus the airlines will likely overlook a missing degree if you have fighter time.
There are plenty of perfectly capable Air Forces around the world that don't require candidates to have a degree to be selected for pilot training. And they get commissioned on graduation.
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