tomgoodman

I think he disagrees with you on the credibility of opinions based on Google study in lieu of experience. As a Trojan lady named Cassandra once lamented: “being right don’t mean squat if nobody believes you”.

Adlerdriver

I'm sure for starters, it's the 3:1 flight hour to work ratio you began with. In a typical operational fighter squadron during non-deployed training operations, I would estimate the typical workday is at least 10 hours whether the pilot is flying or not. Complex missions and double-turning sorties can easily stretch that to 12-14.

Complex local training sorties can involve pre-mission planning the evening prior and another 1-2 hours in the morning prior to the briefing (which starts 2 hours before takeoff). After the ~1.5 hour mission, the re-construction of events and debrief will go at least 3 hours after landing.

You're also ignoring the reality that every pilot holds some other non-flying position in the squadron from senior leadership down to the brand new guy who is either stocking the bar or studying his a$$ off in the vault. Those additional duties typically require an equal amount of attention on non-flying days or may just add to the end of an already long fly day.

Deploy a squadron to a forward operating location for real world combat operations and the work load only goes up from there.

KA350Driver

Oh, well seeing as how I’m not a military pilot, google is really my only option to learn. If only there a forum of military pilots on the internet or something who could give me the straight scoop. In fact, I specifically asked “How many hours does a military pilot fly per year and what I got was “You’re opinion is invalid because I flew for the military and you didn’t!”

KA350Driver

Just for clarification the 3:1 flight to work ratio was specific to flying:briefing/debriefing. Not other non-flying related tasks. Thank you for the info. So the flying:brief: debrief ratio would be closer to 6:1 you’d say?

I’m not ignoring these. In fact I’ve specifically stated several times that many of these additional duties ARE part of the problem and some of the self-induced pains in the neck that pilots don’t want to deal with.

galaxy flyer

Those staff positions aren’t necessarily worthless; lots of bureaucratic tasks that have to get done. Staff work is often the means to increase manning; develop regulations; investigate accidents; manage acquisition programs; contracting. The USAF budget is $135 billion and “wings” aren’t called the “universal management badge” for nothing.

Back to flying time, heavy drivers get about 300-400 hours a year; close to a thousand when contingencies are in full swing. Like I said, it’s hard to fly them at airline rates with 2 crews per plane.

I ran a corporate operation after the military and it’s surprising similar—jobs like training management, safety, standards have to be done and it’s all “out of hide”. We had an 80+ page OM, a 35 page SMS manual and an ERP. We ran ERPs annually. All that has to be done, civil or military. The difference in the airlines is a lot of that is done without involving the line troops.

GF

Sliceback

Thank goodness. That’s why guys leave. Fly then go home. A bigger paycheck shows up two weeks later.

The only mandatory TDY’s are when the wife drags you shopping, or on vacation, against your will.

Adlerdriver

But you then went on to compare the 2000 hours the average American works with the result of applying your ratio, which makes no sense. Why would you parse out only the flying related work of a pilot to make that comparison when it's very likely that whether flying or not, that pilot is spending 2500-3000 hours a year at work.

Highly dependent on the type of aircraft, specific mission and many other factors. This ratio you're using is kind of your "thing", it's not a common way of looking at this. Most fighter pilots show at the squadron at 0700 (earlier if they're flying that morning) and stay until 1600-1700 (longer if they're in the pm go and debriefing). Basically, they show up for work and stay all day like anyone else, maybe get lunch if they have a chance or bring it with.

As I said at the start, you did ignore them with your strange 2000 average American hours to 600 flight duty hours.

USAF pilots have been battling the issue of additional duties since Thuds and F-4s were going "downtown". It's not a new problem and if the last 5 decades are any indication, nothing is going to change.

Brillo

My experience is in Marine Corps aviation, but the Navy is fairly similar. A lot of those ancillary duties do fall into the category of "throwaway jobs" like making the coffee or planning the squadron Christmas party. However, most officers have two to three of those and typically don't even factor them in.

When it comes to ground jobs and statements like "only 1/3 of my time is directly related to pilot duties" (which is true by the way), military pilots start referring to things like being the operations officer, maintenance officer, logistics officer, admin officer, etc.

Imagine being a pilot at your base or airline and performing those duties, and in addition to that you are also responsible for all crew scheduling, route planning, daily/weekly/monthly/yearly schedules, etc.

Imagine being a pilot at your base or airline and performing those duties, and in addition to that you are also responsible for all the maintenance of all the aircraft (and all of the maintenance personnel). Phases, inspections, ordering parts, assigning aircraft to the flight schedule, etc.

Imagine being a pilot at your base or airline and performing those duties, and in addition to that you are also responsible for all of the Human Resources functions of the entire organization. Taxes, vacations, contracts, payroll, etc.

Imagine being a pilot at your base or airline and performing those duties, and in addition to that you are also responsible for all of the logistics/facilities functions of your organization. Catering, fueling, equipment maintenance, every single building and all of the maintenance on those, all of the IT, and taking care of the "apartment building" in which half your employees live.

Essentially, every function at your airline (besides flying) that is done by someone specifically hired to do that job is done by a pilot in the military (or at least directly supervised by that pilot).

That doesn't even factor in any military specific, operational concerns. Additionally, the traditional employer/employee relationship doesn't exist. You are an officer leading Marines and sailors, so for every single one of your "employees," if they have an HR problem, you have an HR problem. If they have a home life issue, you have a home life issue. If they wreck their car, you're figuring out how they get around.

Not trying to do a "woe is me" here. You stated you wanted to know this info, so I'm just throwing it out there. We all knew this and signed up for it and are glad to do it. We're also looking forward to the day we can just focus on being a pilot.

galaxy flyer

Many years ago, my brother was a JO in VF-211. I was a 1Lt visiting for Xmas. While on our way to a squadron party, he had to stop by a enlisted troop’s apartment and make sure his holiday finances were ok. Evidently, this guy was beyond normal late teenage irresponsibility. Imagine, an airline pilot stopping by a ramper’s house to balance his checkbook.

GF

galaxy flyer

Adlerdriver,

In my C-5 unit, one of my pilot’s dad was a P-51 pilot in Europe during the “Big One”. We’d swap stories, but what stuck with me was his comment, “you guys beotch about the same stuff we did in ‘43”. Never changes.

GF