USERRA/Airline Training
03-06-2018, 07:27 AM
#1
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USERRA/Airline Training
Does anyone know if and how USERRA protects servicemembers in regards to training at the company? For instance, if said member called their company to see if it would be possible to fully complete initial simulator training prior to departing for a deployment in the coming months, could the employer legally respond that they would stop ALL training for the employee until they returned from deployment?'
It seems as though it would violate USERRA because it constitutes an "adverse employment action," which would hold the employee back in their career at the company, and which would not have been taken in the absence of military service. The employer would have to prove "that the action would have been taken in the absence of such membership, application for membership, service, application for service, or obligation for service," and since it was in direct response to a phone call regarding a deployment, the contrary has already been proven.
Now, a defense may be that it would be an "undue burden" on the company, but that seems very vague and I'm not sure how often that works as a defense.
Can anyone on here give some guidance on the matter, and what steps should be taken if this were happening to an employee/servicemember?
It seems as though it would violate USERRA because it constitutes an "adverse employment action," which would hold the employee back in their career at the company, and which would not have been taken in the absence of military service. The employer would have to prove "that the action would have been taken in the absence of such membership, application for membership, service, application for service, or obligation for service," and since it was in direct response to a phone call regarding a deployment, the contrary has already been proven.
Now, a defense may be that it would be an "undue burden" on the company, but that seems very vague and I'm not sure how often that works as a defense.
Can anyone on here give some guidance on the matter, and what steps should be taken if this were happening to an employee/servicemember?
03-06-2018, 07:30 AM
#2
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Actually, undue burden is not listed under "§ 4311. Discrimination against persons who serve in the uniformed services and acts of reprisal prohibited". It is only in regards to reemployment rights, so it doesn't look like that would even be a viable reason for such an action.
03-06-2018, 07:42 AM
#3
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Joined APC: Oct 2015
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Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
Does anyone know if and how USERRA protects servicemembers in regards to training at the company? For instance, if said member called their company to see if it would be possible to fully complete initial simulator training prior to departing for a deployment in the coming months, could the employer legally respond that they would stop ALL training for the employee until they returned from deployment?'
It seems as though it would violate USERRA because it constitutes an "adverse employment action," which would hold the employee back in their career at the company, and which would not have been taken in the absence of military service. The employer would have to prove "that the action would have been taken in the absence of such membership, application for membership, service, application for service, or obligation for service," and since it was in direct response to a phone call regarding a deployment, the contrary has already been proven.
Now, a defense may be that it would be an "undue burden" on the company, but that seems very vague and I'm not sure how often that works as a defense.
Can anyone on here give some guidance on the matter, and what steps should be taken if this were happening to an employee/servicemember?
It seems as though it would violate USERRA because it constitutes an "adverse employment action," which would hold the employee back in their career at the company, and which would not have been taken in the absence of military service. The employer would have to prove "that the action would have been taken in the absence of such membership, application for membership, service, application for service, or obligation for service," and since it was in direct response to a phone call regarding a deployment, the contrary has already been proven.
Now, a defense may be that it would be an "undue burden" on the company, but that seems very vague and I'm not sure how often that works as a defense.
Can anyone on here give some guidance on the matter, and what steps should be taken if this were happening to an employee/servicemember?
2) A lot boils down to individual FOMs... at some companies if you go on mil leave during probation, your probation is extended upon your return. You’ll have to dive into the Policy documents of your company once you’re on property to see what the best way to approach it is but the company paying you but not sending you through training doesn’t sound like too a bad of a deal...
03-06-2018, 07:55 AM
#4
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Posts: 36,359
Don't tell them you're leaving until you finish consolidation... that's in your own best interest so you have a solid foundation when you return.
They could probably pay to to sit at home, reason being they're going to have to train you when you return anyway, it's not unreasonable that they don't want to do that twice (you're a lot cheaper than the instructors and the SIM time). You're not necessarily entitled to a free type rating if they don't even know if you'll return after the mob.
Some airlines keep new hires at arms length, ie you're not actually an employee until you finish training.
They could probably pay to to sit at home, reason being they're going to have to train you when you return anyway, it's not unreasonable that they don't want to do that twice (you're a lot cheaper than the instructors and the SIM time). You're not necessarily entitled to a free type rating if they don't even know if you'll return after the mob.
Some airlines keep new hires at arms length, ie you're not actually an employee until you finish training.
03-06-2018, 08:20 AM
#6
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Once you start indoc your DOH is established. No need to complete sims or a type. Can’t legally fire you or take away your seniority/longevity for dropping mil leave a week after showing up, although it may rub some people the wrong way.
03-06-2018, 09:34 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by Ski Bird
Tricky spot to be in.
I assume this is to establish a date-of-hire?
I assume this is to establish a date-of-hire?
03-06-2018, 09:36 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
Once you start indoc your DOH is established. No need to complete sims or a type. Can’t legally fire you or take away your seniority/longevity for dropping mil leave a week after showing up, although it may rub some people the wrong way.
03-06-2018, 10:25 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
No, just don't want to be "benched" for a couple months as retribution for deploying, which is what it seems like.
If you complete sims and don’t consolidate you have to go back into sims. Right now some sim pairings are taking 2-3 months from start of sims to LOE... there’s plenty of folks waiting in the Que to get through training so it doesn’t cost them anything to wait to start you. If you told them you’re going out on leave or absence before you’re able to complete training, what’s the point of spending sim time on you that’s going to have to be redone? They’re willing to invest all the resources into you once you start even if you’re taking longer than footprint, as long as you’re making progress.
From a training prospective, it’d be pretty lame to get paired up with you and have you bail half way through sims and having to ride through every event with a second instructor as a seat filler.
I don’t think anyone is reasonably going to look at your extended paid vacation with flight benefits etc while you’re probation clock is running (until you go on mil leave IIRC), your seniority is increasing and a company that’s happily willing to send you through training upon your return as “retribution”.
I thought you were previously considering leaving due to the training delay? It’s kind of odd that you were talking quitting due to the delays and now you’re trying to legalese a USERRA case for “retribution” around previously discusssed delays...
03-06-2018, 10:34 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by Otterbox
I think I know where you work based on a previous conversation...
If you complete sims and don’t consolidate you have to go back into sims. Right now some sim pairings are taking 2-3 months from start of sims to LOE... there’s plenty of folks waiting in the Que to get through training so it doesn’t cost them anything to wait to start you. If you told them you’re going out on leave or absence before you’re able to complete training, what’s the point of spending sim time on you that’s going to have to be redone? They’re willing to invest all the resources into you once you start even if you’re taking longer than footprint, as long as you’re making progress.
From a training prospective, it’d be pretty lame to get paired up with you and have you bail half way through sims and having to ride through every event with a second instructor as a seat filler.
I don’t think anyone is reasonably going to look at your extended paid vacation with flight benefits etc while you’re probation clock is running (until you go on mil leave IIRC), your seniority is increasing and a company that’s happily willing to send you through training upon your return as “retribution”.
I thought you were previously considering leaving due to the training delay? It’s kind of odd that you were talking quitting due to the delays and now you’re trying to legalese a USERRA case for “retribution” around previously discusssed delays...
If you complete sims and don’t consolidate you have to go back into sims. Right now some sim pairings are taking 2-3 months from start of sims to LOE... there’s plenty of folks waiting in the Que to get through training so it doesn’t cost them anything to wait to start you. If you told them you’re going out on leave or absence before you’re able to complete training, what’s the point of spending sim time on you that’s going to have to be redone? They’re willing to invest all the resources into you once you start even if you’re taking longer than footprint, as long as you’re making progress.
From a training prospective, it’d be pretty lame to get paired up with you and have you bail half way through sims and having to ride through every event with a second instructor as a seat filler.
I don’t think anyone is reasonably going to look at your extended paid vacation with flight benefits etc while you’re probation clock is running (until you go on mil leave IIRC), your seniority is increasing and a company that’s happily willing to send you through training upon your return as “retribution”.
I thought you were previously considering leaving due to the training delay? It’s kind of odd that you were talking quitting due to the delays and now you’re trying to legalese a USERRA case for “retribution” around previously discusssed delays...
Side note: you said earlier that probation freezes with military leave, which I think is true, so why shouldn't consolidation also? Not really the point of this thread, just something I noticed.
As far as leaving due to delays, I decided not to, of course, but why take a further penalty delay for deploying?
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