Sim IP then Airlines?
 

Anyone have experience transitioning from military sim IP to airlines? I’m retiring from a flying assignment, and considering working as a UPT sim IP for a few years before going airlines, until my kids are done with high school. Just wondering what guys do to stay current or regain currency so they can jump back into flying later.

Thanks!

The end of career pay you’d be giving up is $350-450K+ per year. Subtract your simP pay and that’s the cost of being home every night.

And then you’d be applying to the airlines as an X years non current guy. Which increases the likelihood, and length, of the RJ seasoning your resume/application might need. At a cost of $350-450K per year minus your regional pay.

Typical staff officer options to stay current might include CFI’ing on the side. How much ‘family’ time does that take?

Ask your airline buds how much they would work, and nights away, if they min run their early years at their airline? Ten days per month? Five to seven nights away?

Is the sim job $100K? A four year delay starts at $1.0 to $1.4 million. And then there’s being less senior every year in the interim.

That’s why few guys pass on ‘keep pressing’. It’s big numbers and a long term QOL impact.

Good luck. Just throwing out data.

Damn that’s a lot of seniority, money, and QOL to give up in this environment. I’d never do it. And I’d be shocked if any of your airline bro’s would either.

For the love of god, please listen to Sliceback on this. I don’t think you understand how important it is to get the job now (more like yesterday) in this business. Just commute until your kids are done with high school. You might even get picked up for retired reserve and be able to be home a lot. You need to take the long view on this.

Trying to figure out the value of being X numbers more senior is trickier. None one wishes they were six months more junior and everyone realizes the value of being six months more senior.

Guys hired 6-12 months ahead of me have made at least $500,000 more on increased seniority and you can add in another $250K+ for their additional time at the airline. That translates into more income over their career OR the ability to retire 2-3 years earlier with the same retirement portfolio. Let's not even mention holiday or vacation bidding.

The reward for being hired 6-12 months earlier is huge. Getting hired years earlier? Light years different.

Will the sim job be available a year or two after you retire? A lot of this will make more sense once you're living it. Consider getting an airline job and quitting after 1 year and taking the sim job. It's a much bigger hit to delay the airline job for a year, or years, not knowing what the real impact is.

I've had a number of friends that retired from mil and did the sim IP thing. Other than the one's that did it for a few months (less than a year, myself included), exactly 0 of them have gone to the airlines. The ones that stayed either had no desire to move on the the airlines or couldn't get hired due to lack of currency. Times were different then, there was hiring but not crazy hiring like we've seen in the past couple of years. Please listen to Sliceback's advice above. I'd skip the sim and get a seniority number now.

I retired and did the sim gig for 3.5 years at 100-120K/yr, then had to go to the regionals for 1.5 years at 30-45K/yr until getting picked up at my dream job. Career wise there is no doubt that going straight to the airlines would have been better, the seniority lost in the 5 years (assuming I would have been hired straight out of the military) equates to schedule QOL today that is significant, 5 year delayed upgrade to CA and the financials associated with it. I could run the numbers but I think it is safe to say it is close to a million dollars (salary, retirement, etc.). That's the down side, the upside is I was home every night for 3.5 years, we went from the chaos of military life to a stable lifestyle where I made good money (without a first year airline hit) and had an opportunity to get financially fit. All that said, if I had to do it over I would skip the sim gig, live in base, and sit reserve (depending on the airline); regional pay is better today than it was when I went there but the numbers don't come close and the QOL (time at home) at the airlines is much better than what I experienced on active duty. I loved my time in the military, wouldn't trade it for anything; enjoyed my time as a sim instructor, it was exceptionally rewarding (and easy); I am beyond fortunate to have landed where I did, wish I would have made the decision to be here 5 years earlier.

Best of luck with your decision...

I think the OP wants to keep his kids in the same high school, which I agree with. So he needs to commute. IIRC OP, you live in OK, don't be afraid of the commute. You probably have some military friends telling you to avoid it at all costs, but it isn't a big deal, and if you are willing to move after your kids graduate, there will be light at the end of the tunnel. I commuted to 2 jobs for 4 years, the family and I did fine. There were rough spots for sure, but looking back, we are very glad we made that choice. You have a lot of options from OKC.

If your wife is on the fence...you need to paint the picture for her. Like Sliceback said, you probably need to get the job to understand these factors. You need to come to terms with leaving your comfort zone (and your family as well). Discomfort now equals payoff in the future.

Notice I said, "If I had to do it over again"; the point being that I went through exactly what the OP is considering and having to make the decision again would choose a different path despite it working out just fine.

You make a good point and I should explain my position better; my statement that by living in base my QOL would not have been significantly different than working the sim job and being home every night. I think it is safe to say that choosing to commute will put a person on the road a minimum of 50% of the time, while junior significantly more.

To your point if I had to make the decision again being anchored somewhere and having to commute, I would still choose the airline route. The lost seniority and money wouldn't be worth the few years of gained QOL through the sim job for a few years.

Thanks for all the good info. Much appreciated.

The plan all along has been airlines. But I've had all my apps in since Nov, I'm less than 30 days out from my availability date, and I haven't heard anything from anyone. So I'm putting an app in with the sims in case I don't get a call for a few months (or at all) from the airlines.

I was thinking CFI or Civil Air Patrol on the side to stay flying if I end up doing the sim gig for an extended period of time. And I assumed that the longer I did the sim job, the longer I'd have to fly regionals on the back side before a major would call me.

I have been expecting to commute for the first few years, so we are prepared for that. Just waiting for the call...

Cheers,

Last time I read one of your posts you didn’t seem very heartset on being an airline guy, but that was back in January.


If you’ve put more effort into things than publishing your apps in November and calling it good then you should be getting a call within the next 90 days... if not get to a regional ASAP and start working the network and hit the job fairs.

Yeah, I'm tracking:cool:. I agree not commuting is better too, just from reading his other posts, he seems set on living in OK for awhile and a bit hesitant to jump in the game. Just letting him know it's very doable. I even know one reservist at his AF base doing it right now. The guy seems very happy.

Whoa! You're less than 30 days out?! And no job lined up? Apply to the regional airlines TODAY. That's the smart move to increase your odds of getting a major 121 job. CFI'ing or CAP isn't the answer. Go get 121 stink on you. Don't wait.

I agree with Slice back, good advice. But the 30-days out with nothing also compels me to ask the dumb questions. Does everything you’ve submitted reflect that availability date? Have you invested in a prep course like those offered by Emerald Coast? Anyone QCed your apps, times, etc? Are your quals very competitive or just making the min? Do you have LORs? Is it possible there is an unknown issue with what you’ve submitted? Do you have any insiders who can inquire about your application status at a particular airline.

I looked at AA's 2014/2016/2018 hiring. Took guys hired in April of those years who are retiring in the summer of 2037. So the 2014 guy was 43 yrs old when he got hired, the 2016 guy was 45 yrs old, and the 2018 was 47 yrs old. Actually everyone was approx. 3 months short of the listed ages.

DOH/current seniority number/final seniority number -
2014 - 12900 - 835 (best estimate, manual counting)
2016 - 13800 - 1305
2018 - 15000 - 2100

A 43 yr old hired today would retire at 1300(?). A 45 yr old would retire at 1660(?). And a 47 yr old would retire at 2100. Based roughly on April hiring months for 2014/2016/2018.

What about the 43 yr old that waits until he's 45 to get hired? His 1300(?) retirement number becomes 2150(?) if he waits 2 years (hired at 45) and becomes 3300 if he waits four years(hired at 47). At AA delaying for four years would cost him exactly four years of G4 CA job at the junior base using today's numbers.

All public math, and finger counting, so I'd welcome any corrections. Unfortunately the union's automated projection site isn't working.

Another vote for the regionals.


Just do it.


Lots to be gained and very little to be lost. You will be a better aviator and have a more attractive application for the experience.

I've been doing the UPT Sim IP thing for about a year and a half and can honestly say I love my job insofar as working with the SPs and imparting what little knowledge I have. We are being forced to turn out an inferior product though. I've held on to the hope for a pay increase (DLF got one!!), or civilian flying IPs (it's in the works!). Mother Blue wants more pilots, cheaper and faster, without acknowledging how low their standards have sunk.

I have a class date with an LCC, and I'm really wrestling with what to do. I have a cushy life now, home every night and loving going to work. I only make GS-12 pay, but taking the airline job will be a big pay cut year 1. I've never been eager to go 121, but I'm also tired of looking the other way as the AF lowers standards by the day.

Due to lack of recency, I realize the LCC job offer is the only shot I'll have at an airline career, I'm just not sure that is the career I want. It's nothing compared to the big 6 jobs, so is it worth giving up a comfortable life at home? I've never done the 121 thing and don't know anything about the affect it would have on my 4yo daughter, wife, etc.

Am I dumb for wanting to walk away from a 121 career in favor of a job I'm good at and like, even if the AF thinks is unimportant?

I think it depends on the long-term prospects for your current job.

Also a big factor would be where are the LCC domiciles amd can you move there. 121 is a pretty good life, living in base makes a good job a great job. Even most of the LCC's have pretty good CA pay, compared to normal white-collar job, especially considering how little you work, and then the nature of the work (ie park the plane, grab your gear and go home without a worry in the world). LCC FO's should mostly get paid better than GS-12 as well (first year pay is a kick in the junk at many airlines though).

Ideally talk to someone at the airline in question but today, with typical work rules a line holder will make about 1200x hourly rate annually + 401k (employer DC is typically better than most white-collar jobs, 15%+ at many majors).

The next 24 months may well be one of the biggest periods of airline hiring ever seen. The loss of seniority will be huge. Get your apps QA’d by one of the services and make sure they are perfect. You should get a call.