Military PIC or 121 SIC? Which matters more?
 

I'm a KC-135 reservist and I was hired by a regional about 15 months ago. After IOE I went on military leave for over a year, so I only have 30 hours SIC (obviously never got consolidated with the company).

I have 1500TT (400 PIC), most of it in the tanker.

As an Air Force reservist, I have the opportunity to fly roughly 50 hours a month (all PIC) if I deploy and go TDY enough (but I would have to delay training and consolidation at the regional). OR I could complete my consolidation and fly with the regional primarily. With my seniority number I can hold a decent schedule for flying 80 hours a month as an FO, while supplementing my time for a few hours of flight time a month in the tanker.

My question is, what do the majors value more? PIC time, but lower Total Time OR more Total Time with less PIC?

In a nutshell - military PIC vs 121 SIC. Which matters more? Or are they just boxes to be checked, and from there you chase the total time?

Thanks in advance.

Hard to say what the algos will give more credit to, but you have the PIC square filled. If I were in your shoes I’d churn out as much TT as possible. I’d fly a full regional schedule and try to fly as much in the tanker as I can on days off, assuming your family can hack it, if you have one. You can prob hit 90-100 hours of block a month. I’d give it a year at that rate and you’ll be competitive. Maybe less with as much hiring as there’s been and will be in the next year.

Guy in my Delta interviewed got destroyed in his panel interview for being on Mil leave his entire time he was at a regional. His answer wasn't the best to the question ( said he preferred the military flying) but if you're gonna take the time to go through training at a regional why would you not fly? I'd start cranking out total time now.

Generally, military PIC is better.

But as was mentioned, it can be a problem if it involves extensive mil leave for guard/reserve.

DAL is most certainly highly suspicious of folks who drop a lot of mil. They love ex-mil... current mil not quite so much.

I would think that would almost be a illegal question to ask the interviewee. Military service is protected under Federal law. I however don't know for certain.

With that in mind I would split the time between the regional and the tanker job.

At your stage of the game, mil PIC as it counts as PIC and 121 SIC equivalent time (upto 500hrs worth).

Once deployment is over you need to go and demonstrate you can be a productive member of the team at your 121 gig, otherwise you probably will get destroyed at a 121 interview, especially if you go to it while you’re on military leave...

Should be protected, yes.

But that's a battle that's hard to fight if you're a job applicant. Very low odds of litigating your way into a major airline job.

Illegal or not, As Rickair said good luck fighting that battle.

If you are claiming a Type rating or employment at a regional for a substantial period of time yet haven't hit consolidation time yet AND are claiming simultaneous military time indicating you were fit to fly it wouldn't have to be asked, it woukd be obvious.

And if you didn't claim it and they ever found out - and they woukd - it woukd be making a fraudulent claim on your application which woukd be grounds for nit hiring or even dismissal.

Hard to sneak that one by...

How much of your 1500 TT is military and how much is civilian?

We don't know what the best blend of mil vs civ that the computers search for. But you could be blasting out 800+(?) hours a year in the 121 and rapidly closing on your upgrade to get 121 PIC time. That's what I'd hunt down. And I'd volunteer for high flying time deployments but revert to a part time status and bust my ass flying 121 the rest of the time.

With 400 hrs military PIC I'd pursue more TT and getting my 121 Captain upgrade.

You’re assuming that the guy told him everything and didn’t omit anything.

The HR/pilots that interview are VERY savy in asking questions and letting a pilot go down the “choose your own adventure” path in an interview.

He could have been asked multiple questions and answered them poorly.

yep I agree

I don't know from the OPers statement whether the pilot was trying to hide the military service. I would hope not. Lying does get one fired.

My comment was rather that it was a very questionable behavior and possibly illegal if the pilot was not hired because he/she served in a protected military status.

Like others above stated .... good luck proving it.

Not condoning illegal activity by any HR department, but reality doesn't change because somebody passes a law against it. I forget which state legislature had a bill to change pi because 3.14159..., was such a difficult number to expect school kids to learn, but it wouldn't have worked even if they'd passed it... ;)

Did that really happen?

Again, assumption.

Maybe the candidate was simply being personality tested in the interview and handled the questions poorly.

Like I said, the HR/pilots can be very clever at getting people to talk, TOO MUCH

Clarifying why I took so much mil leave-
 

Thanks for all the feedback.

To clarify, I did not intend to be on mil leave for over a year. I took the regional job because flying at my reserve unit was scarce at the time for a copilot. However, immediately after I took the job, a number of things happened:
1. Selected for Aircraft Commander upgrade = 1.5 months of orders plus more opportunities to fly since scheduling can use an AC easier than a copilot
2. Active Duty needed help with their taskings and asked for help from the reserves - another 2 months of orders
3. multiple deployments that I volunteered for (total of 5 months of orders)

Finally, I talked to the chief pilot and tried to get consolidated before all of these back to back orders went into effect, but no luck. He said they couldn't give me a line to help with consolidation before the military orders began.

All that being said, I can easily see how DAL or anyone else won't want to hear my excuses (even though it's the truth).

What is consolidation?

Now would I lie about something like that? Of course not.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

CFR › Title 14 › Chapter I › Subchapter G › Part 121 › Subpart O › Section 121.434
14 CFR 121.434 - Operating experience, operating cycles, and consolidation of knowledge and skills.
§ 121.434 Operating experience, operating cycles, and consolidation of knowledge and skills.
(a) No certificate holder may use a person nor may any person serve as a required crewmember of an airplane unless the person has satisfactorily completed, on that type airplane and in that crewmember position, the operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills, required by this section, except as follows:

(1) Crewmembers other than pilots in command may serve as provided herein for the purpose of meeting the requirements of this section.

(2) Pilots who are meeting the pilot in command requirements may serve as second in command.

(3) Separate operating experience, operating cycles, and line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills are not required for variations within the same type airplane.

(4) Deviation based upon designation of related aircraft in accordance with § 121.418(b).

(i) The Administrator may authorize a deviation from the operating experience, operating cycles, and line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills required by this section based upon a designation of related aircraft in accordance with § 121.418(b) of this part and a determination that the certificate holder can demonstrate an equivalent level of safety.

(ii) A request for deviation from the operating experience, operating cycles, and line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills required by this section based upon a designation of related aircraft must be submitted to the Administrator. The request must include the following:

(A) Identification of aircraft operated by the certificate holder designated as related aircraft.

(B) Hours of operating experience and number of operating cycles necessary based on review of the related aircraft, the operation, and the duty position.

(C) Consolidation hours necessary based on review of the related aircraft, the operation, and the duty position.

......

Basically, a certain amount of actual experience after getting a new type rating.

I can’t believe it! Although when I was in high school Pi was 3.14.

Thank you- I’ve heard 100 hrs in 90 days, but didn’t know it was called consolidation. Is it a set number for 121 ops?

that's correct - 100 hours in 90 days

You can normally get an extension to 120 days, may have to do bounces in the sim.

But if you don't consolidate on time you have to take another checkride.

Some companies also have a program to just give a line check as an extension.

Get consolidated at the airline.

Its been stated in the thread. Legacies and the top express overnight company HR depts will will instantly sift out you are a "no show" and use military service excessively for their desires, likely not even an invite. Resume shows 121 date of hire and flight time at regional. They will indicate not really flying 121 but Military. If get a call when meet mins or more, easy to determine you are far under the flying time for non military peers. HR departments can ask many questions that are not considered illegal and determine not an ideal applicant.
All legacy and top express overnight companies hire enough military that they will not be questioned on discrimination of military.
Separately, are you meeting the USERRA requirements for orders/man days/etc and asking for reemployment as required by USERRA for each set of orders? If not, you risk not being legally re employable by your airline.
IMO, you want a healthy balance of MIL/121SIC as HR departments will look at that metric. Focusing only on PIC or SIC is missing HR "big" picture judgement and selection criteria.
Good fortunes

Not trying to bust your chops...but....you made the decision to guard bum off of available days instead of working for the airline. You weren’t forced to take orders. You will definitely want to pile on some 121 hours before going to any interview. These people aren’t dumb....they know the deal.

Sooo, this thread now has me worried.

I separated from active duty this summer and went to training at a regional while on my 90 days of terminal leave. I’ve finished training and have about 50 hours in type, but I now have to drop about 6 months of mil leave to do initial training in my new ANG squadron on a new MWS. I was under the impression that I would come back in the spring, do a few days of requal training in the RJ and take another checkride, restarting my consolidation clock. Have I just hosed myself by jumping the gun on joining a regional?

For reference, my stats are:
~2200TT, 900PIC
BS/MS with >3.5gpa for both
Prior AETC IP
No SEFE, chief pilot, or safety, but no other red flags
Loads of community involvement (volunteer, scoutmaster, etc)

Granted, the seniority list shows I can’t even hold a line in my base till next summer, and I will get more hours in the Guard (mixed SIC/PIC) than I would sitting reserve as an overstaffed FO, but have I shot myself in the foot? Or is 6-9 months of mandatory training in the Guard during my first year at the regionals understandable to the majors?

i know it's tough for them to see what your orders are for, but a IQ is a lot different than bumming orders.

Probably not hosed as long as you get back to the regional and start flying within your first year. Try to be a minimalist at the guard until you have enough track record to disarm any guard bum suspicions, or get a major airline job.

I would probably lead the problem, at the interview there will be a "tell us about yourself" moment. I'd work the guard IQ into the story, making it clear it was just timing as opposed to you trying to game your way out of the first year at the regional.

Also if you don't consolidate within 120 days of the sim checkride, you will have to take another checkride.

At AA you get a short requal course which is one day 1:1 with a GS instructor, one sim with a SimP(instructor), and then you go to a full recurrent training cycle to reset all your base month classes/quals/etc.

That's with AQP, and varies based on length of absence. I think after three years, you typically do the full training program.

PC is similar, except they technically don't "have" to give you any warm up training but I think most companies would give you a little refresher and at least a warmup sim.

You also get some OE before they cut you lose.

But that's for someone who is already qualified. If you never consolidated, you will have to do a checkride, PC or LOE, whatever they normally do for initial and then finish consolidation.

Some places use PC for initial and AQP for recurrent. If that's the case you would have to do the PC if you never consolidated.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I need to get back to the airline before next summer to get recurrent and maybe work on my interview explanations with Emerald Coast. I honestly don’t want to spend one more day on AD than I have to, and even if I did, I’d have 8+ years needed for retirement so I couldn’t play that game (which I know Delt hates).

IMO, an IQ will be fine as I'm sure you will update your resume to reflect the IQ, RTU etc.
HR can tell the difference of a new airplane in the ANG/ Navy/USMC/USAF Reserve. That is a fact for some AD who go to a legacy who switch airframes in military and need to go to RTU training in first year of airline employment. Budgets and all.
Try to do seasoning in new mil airframe to minimize impact on regional time yet satisfy the squadron. Likely your family will pay heavily of your time.
Standard experience is someone or more is always unhappy with you being a dual hatted "employee" Military needs more flex, Airline wants you not to do any mil, and family pays because your trying to manage airline and military.
Good future to you, I think your fine.

You know you've achieved the right balance when your unit, civilian employer, and family all hate you.

Haha, yeah that checks. I expect life to suck for the next year or so. At least I live 20 minutes from my Guard base, and the airline commute is a 3 hour drive or 45 minute, 8/day flight.

Yup. Just make sure you pour some water on the airline gig even though you'll make a bunch more money at the unit. I put in all of 250 hours at my first airline gig....lots of mil leave. Had two interviews this past spring. It came up at both in some round-about fashion.

It’s actually really simple for HR to find out without having to ask you direct questions, they’ll look at your recency you include in your application. And the first thing they’ll ask you for at the interview is your log book, they’ll look for consistently large breaks.

As others have mentioned, you’ll be fine splitting time with your unit; going on orders once in awhile isn’t a big deal. Just don’t do like some have in the past and voluntarily mil leave them for a year+ at a time. Maintain recency with both and you’ll be fine. The airlines recognize and appreciate that the military is a commitment, and they’ll thank you for your service. The airline just doesn’t want to play second fiddle, by seeing you appear to be more committed to your military gig than your 121 job; it raises questions as to how committed you’ll be to the new company if they hire you.