Career Intermission Program
10-28-2018, 08:36 AM
#11
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,220
Originally Posted by ipdanno
Disclosure: This data is 10 years old.
In AFRes, the ‘Sanctuary’ zone is from 18-20 years worth of Active Duty points. I imagine it is the same across all branches.
If a member gets to 17.5 years worth of AD points, the beauracracy kicks in to scrutinize any orders offered to member, except Annual Tour, ADT, and drill.
The reason isn’t to deny an Active Duty retirement, because the Reserve Components don’t pay for retirements. The reason is that if a member is on the right type of orders, and crosses 18 yrs AD points, the member can claim the Sanctuary protection, and stay on active status until reaching 20 yrs AD points, followed by mandatory retirement. It is those (up to) 2 years worth of days that come out of the AFRC O&M budget. That’s what gets the O-6 fired.
In my unit, the one officer and one enlisted, who were 9/11-mobilized into the Sanctuary zone, claimed that protection, and were then transferred to Active Duty, i.e. out of the unit and out of AFRC. At 20 yrs AD points, they were each retired.
In this unit, there were also about 10 officers and 8-10 enlisted who were able to reach 20 yrs AD points, without having to claim Sanctuary protection. How, you might ask? Thank you for asking. After our one year activation, Active Air Force needed our aircraft and the crews to operate them. They offered consecutive full-time orders, eventually 12 months at a pop, to all takers.
When members approached the Sanctuary zone, they were put on the watch list. In order for AFRC to approve these individuals’ orders, the member had to sign a Sanctuary Zone Protections waiver and Statement of Understanding. Basically promising to NOT claim Sanctuary while on these orders. Sign the waiver, get the Mandays. Do it enough, you climb right through the 20 yrs of AD points. After that, AFRC is not liable for any O & M funding to get you to 20 yrs points, because you’re already there, or beyond there. The member can retire and join the check a month club, or continue in the Reserves.
I have no idea if the NavRes has anything like this waiver, or if AFRC is still willing to play the game. It is truly Win-Win, because the RC will not be liable for the O & M funds, since the member signed a waiver. And the Reserve Components never fund retirements-that come out of another DoD bucket.
In AFRes, the ‘Sanctuary’ zone is from 18-20 years worth of Active Duty points. I imagine it is the same across all branches.
If a member gets to 17.5 years worth of AD points, the beauracracy kicks in to scrutinize any orders offered to member, except Annual Tour, ADT, and drill.
The reason isn’t to deny an Active Duty retirement, because the Reserve Components don’t pay for retirements. The reason is that if a member is on the right type of orders, and crosses 18 yrs AD points, the member can claim the Sanctuary protection, and stay on active status until reaching 20 yrs AD points, followed by mandatory retirement. It is those (up to) 2 years worth of days that come out of the AFRC O&M budget. That’s what gets the O-6 fired.
In my unit, the one officer and one enlisted, who were 9/11-mobilized into the Sanctuary zone, claimed that protection, and were then transferred to Active Duty, i.e. out of the unit and out of AFRC. At 20 yrs AD points, they were each retired.
In this unit, there were also about 10 officers and 8-10 enlisted who were able to reach 20 yrs AD points, without having to claim Sanctuary protection. How, you might ask? Thank you for asking. After our one year activation, Active Air Force needed our aircraft and the crews to operate them. They offered consecutive full-time orders, eventually 12 months at a pop, to all takers.
When members approached the Sanctuary zone, they were put on the watch list. In order for AFRC to approve these individuals’ orders, the member had to sign a Sanctuary Zone Protections waiver and Statement of Understanding. Basically promising to NOT claim Sanctuary while on these orders. Sign the waiver, get the Mandays. Do it enough, you climb right through the 20 yrs of AD points. After that, AFRC is not liable for any O & M funding to get you to 20 yrs points, because you’re already there, or beyond there. The member can retire and join the check a month club, or continue in the Reserves.
I have no idea if the NavRes has anything like this waiver, or if AFRC is still willing to play the game. It is truly Win-Win, because the RC will not be liable for the O & M funds, since the member signed a waiver. And the Reserve Components never fund retirements-that come out of another DoD bucket.
The Navy has no formal mechanism to transfer sanctuary reservists into a particular funding status. But like you mentioned, CNRFC will waive folks to get orders extensions, but they need to know who's paying for the last two years of AD (typically the command who's asking for the waiver, big AD commands do have discretionary funding for that sort of thing). If someone were to slip through the cracks, then CNRFC would coordinate with their AD community detailer to find a job they could do (probably not a "good" job in a nice location). Failing that, CNRFC would probably have to bring them on as staff somewhere in the reserve echelons.
I know one guy who got the extension, did his extra two years at the (overseas) HQ that needed him, and then was able to get a full-time war college instructor job. The Navy did not have to let him stick around at the point but he was able to compete for the job and I guess the AD O6 end strength was low that year.
My understanding on the retirement funding is that it does somehow come back to CNRFC in aggregate, but it's probably more of a philosophical, best practice, fiscal management kind of thing as opposed to strict accounting, since in any given year they can't predict how many reservists will become eligible for what kind of retirement.
10-28-2018, 01:26 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by BeatNavy
Yeah I had no idea the navy was so stingy until I flew with a couple navy dudes who finished in the reserves who told me it was basically impossible to get an active retirement. It just didn’t compute based on how many AFR/ANG guys swing active retirements, I figured there’d be no difference across services.
If USN has access to title 32 state budget process and federal congressional organization as a National Guard, may see same arrangements.
If leave active duty Navy, you know the deal. No surprises or cheap shots by the Navy IMO. I managed multiple budgets in my command tours and fought to fund our sailors to accomplish our mission. Always a shoestring. If needed a full time sailor with expertise, we went to fill the billet with an active duty qualified sailor. It was easier to manage because everyone short of dollars. For the one active duty sailor reservists to get an active duty retirement, many other reserve sailors would "pay" the bill with less drills funded and more work "without" pay. Many do extra work off the clock. Service to country does not always pay cash. (didn't consider myself a mercenary either)
10-28-2018, 07:23 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 47
Good post JP.
A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.
A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.
10-28-2018, 08:35 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by cheap
Good post JP.
A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.
A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.
20x365=7300. Don't know why there is any confusion about that.
You don't necessarily need T10 orders to get AD points as some T32 orders also contribute to AD points. There are T32 AD orders galore out there if you know where to look and willing to change lane.
PME add extra points to your guard retirement but not AD. Not all points are the same, it all depends on how your orders are written. Check your PCARS for points in the AD column. And make sure the points add up correctly, most of the time it's wrong.
BTW avoid AF Reserve if possible, it's just AD lite.
10-28-2018, 08:56 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 47
There's an AFI somewhere that states 360 days is a year for something... retirement calculations or points determination I think. I seent it - it's in a table.
360x20=7200
What about Feb 29th?
365 x 15 + 366 x 5 = 7305
360x20=7200
What about Feb 29th?
365 x 15 + 366 x 5 = 7305
10-28-2018, 10:35 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 68
Here's your table.
https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/Service...e-retired-pay/
Still doesn't answer the question of 7200, 7300, or 7305.
But this is not cool...... "(years of service) x (2.5%) [Reduced 1% per year short of 30." So if I have 7300 points at 20 years and retire, am I only getting 40% instead of 50%?
https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/Service...e-retired-pay/
Still doesn't answer the question of 7200, 7300, or 7305.
But this is not cool...... "(years of service) x (2.5%) [Reduced 1% per year short of 30." So if I have 7300 points at 20 years and retire, am I only getting 40% instead of 50%?
10-30-2018, 07:13 AM
#19
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,220
Here's what's confusing about points... it's doesn't flow the same in both directions.
A reservist gets a pro-rated year towards calculation of the retirement multiplier based on 360 points per year. So he actually gets a year's worth of multiplier money for slightly less than a calendar year's worth of points. Kind of like you also get 15 annual points for breathing.
But regular active-duty service (of any sort other than drills) counts towards your point total on a DAY FOR DAY BASIS. So an AD member going reserve after exactly ten years will get 10 x 365 = 3650 points, plus a couple-three extra points for the leap years.
So at that moment in time his exactly ten years of AD would translate to a retirement multiplier of 3652/7200 = .507222, slightly more than ten calendar years worth.
So nobodies getting hosed, either way. The 360 points per multiplier year comes from title ten, so it should not be subject to peculiar service-specific policies.
A reservist gets a pro-rated year towards calculation of the retirement multiplier based on 360 points per year. So he actually gets a year's worth of multiplier money for slightly less than a calendar year's worth of points. Kind of like you also get 15 annual points for breathing.
But regular active-duty service (of any sort other than drills) counts towards your point total on a DAY FOR DAY BASIS. So an AD member going reserve after exactly ten years will get 10 x 365 = 3650 points, plus a couple-three extra points for the leap years.
So at that moment in time his exactly ten years of AD would translate to a retirement multiplier of 3652/7200 = .507222, slightly more than ten calendar years worth.
So nobodies getting hosed, either way. The 360 points per multiplier year comes from title ten, so it should not be subject to peculiar service-specific policies.
10-30-2018, 12:28 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 331
In AFRC, to qualify for an AD retirement (technically it is referred to as an AGR retirement), one needs to accrue 7305 AD points. Reserve points don’t help you reach that number, but upon reaching the Active retirement threshold, all Reserve points are added to your total to determine your retirement check.
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