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Old 04-09-2019, 04:58 AM   #11  
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If you go RLO itís usually fairly painless to revert to WO unless youíve been a jerk. Go WO and itís more challenging to become a RLO.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:26 AM   #12  
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Just the fact you are even talking on an airline forum means you should go warrant. Dont go RLO and be a selfish LT who schedules himself to fly above everyone else because he is building time.
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:19 AM   #13  
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If you go RLO it’s usually fairly painless to revert to WO unless you’ve been a jerk. Go WO and it’s more challenging to become a RLO.
Actually, the reverse can be true. FAR more paperwork to revert to WO than say the paperwork associated with a direct commission. Assuming the person qualifies. The paperwork associated with constructive credit alone is a huge headache in itself. As a former Aviation career manager I once had an Air Force academy graduate guy who wanted to join the Reserves. He wanted to circumvent the constructive credit process for CW3 because he was a USAFA graduate. I explained to him that though I was impressed, the Army doesn't give a flying phukk and if you want to get promoted (eventually) to CW3 you have to get this stupid advance course completed.
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:27 AM   #14  
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Just the fact you are even talking on an airline forum means you should go warrant. Dont go RLO and be a selfish LT who schedules himself to fly above everyone else because he is building time.
I had one of those LTs. Made the flight schedule and put himself on it more than any other non PC in the whole company
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:11 AM   #15  
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Just the fact you are even talking on an airline forum means you should go warrant. Dont go RLO and be a selfish LT who schedules himself to fly above everyone else because he is building time.
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Originally Posted by Taco280AI View Post
I had one of those LTs. Made the flight schedule and put himself on it more than any other non PC in the whole company
First of all, LTs (as PLs) have 12-24 months to fly and make PC before they have to go to staff, at which point they will fly mins if they are lucky and certainly will not progress from there skill/proficiency wise. So while you may see it as selfish, it's actually their only real shot of making PC prior to commanding while you guys stay in the company most of your career. Then when those guys step into a command a few years later, they have 6 months to make PC by regulation. If they never made it before, then are out of the cockpit for a year or more (usually several years of low flying while on staff/CCC/staff again), they won't have a great opportunity to be worth a damn as a commander (flying wise).

You guys always wanna bash RLOs for being bad pilots, then you wanna bash them when they take the one slim opportunity they have to progress and become assets to the ATP. As a PL, my CO told us (and our SP) we had to put ourselves on as much or more than the WOs. I didn't have a choice. The other PL in my company was the flight schedule guy, but the SP ended up taking it over from him, and he continued with the commander's instruction. And if a "selfish" PL is putting himself on the flight schedule too much, don't you think the company and battalion commander would stop it since they are the approval for it? I hope since you are complaining on APC, you took your same complaints to your company and battalion commanders when the "selfish" LTs flew too much for your liking.

Despite trying to fly us as much or more than the WOs, with all the other stuff we PLs had on our plates, we ended up flying about the same or less than the W1/W2s on the same timeline to the unit. Then downrange it was pretty much all equal. Then I went to staff and barely flew. Fortunately I made PC 9 months after showing up to my unit and got to fly a lot as a PC/AMC over the next year I had left as a PL, and my old company flew me as much as I could get away while on staff since I was an asset to them when they were short PCs/AMCs, but I saw a lot of other LTs get hosed by the warrants who controlled the flight schedule. Sometimes it was their own fault for sucking at flying or not being in the books enough, but most of the times they just never had an opportunity to fly because they weren't a priority. As one SP told me, "we are hired help and will be gone in a year so we don't matter."

Those LTs are your leaders and future commanders/staff officers. If you want them to be good aviators, it benefits you to ensure they fly a lot as a PL. 2-3 PLs being stick pigs while they are fresh out of flight school trying to make PC won't affect any WOs in the long run. But those guys getting very little flight time as PLs will affect their ability to be good aviators as staff guys and commanders later, which will affect everyone in the unit. RLOs who got hosed by warrants flying-wise early on tended to be the WO-hating commanders later. I'm sure you loved having commanders/S3s who were WO haters. Also, don't you want your leaders to lead by example? If they flew very little and focused on admin stuff, are they really going to be good leaders in a flight platoon or flight company?

This whole discussion is one reason why I left the army and went to the Air Force, where this problem doesn't exist. Rant off.
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Old 04-09-2019, 01:52 PM   #16  
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Originally Posted by Gundriver64 View Post
Actually, the reverse can be true. FAR more paperwork to revert to WO than say the paperwork associated with a direct commission. Assuming the person qualifies. The paperwork associated with constructive credit alone is a huge headache in itself. As a former Aviation career manager I once had an Air Force academy graduate guy who wanted to join the Reserves. He wanted to circumvent the constructive credit process for CW3 because he was a USAFA graduate. I explained to him that though I was impressed, the Army doesn't give a flying phukk and if you want to get promoted (eventually) to CW3 you have to get this stupid advance course completed.
RLO you need to attend OCS. Reverting to warrant is a paper work process.
But yeah, I had to redo the advanced course, because ďthe WO advanced course was different.Ē🙄 Someone took the armor advanced course, snapped aviation on it then WO branch and made it the WO advanced course. So I learned about the levels of MX for tanks. And where a corps smoke asset gets its resuply of smoke. And how an infantry team clears a trench. You know, useful stuff so I could help my BN CO when we deployed. 🙄
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Old 04-09-2019, 01:54 PM   #17  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
First of all, LTs (as PLs) have 12-24 months to fly and make PC before they have to go to staff, at which point they will fly mins if they are lucky and certainly will not progress from there skill/proficiency wise. So while you may see it as selfish, it's actually their only real shot of making PC prior to commanding while you guys stay in the company most of your career. Then when those guys step into a command a few years later, they have 6 months to make PC by regulation. If they never made it before, then are out of the cockpit for a year or more (usually several years of low flying while on staff/CCC/staff again), they won't have a great opportunity to be worth a damn as a commander (flying wise).

You guys always wanna bash RLOs for being bad pilots, then you wanna bash them when they take the one slim opportunity they have to progress and become assets to the ATP. As a PL, my CO told us (and our SP) we had to put ourselves on as much or more than the WOs. I didn't have a choice. The other PL in my company was the flight schedule guy, but the SP ended up taking it over from him, and he continued with the commander's instruction. And if a "selfish" PL is putting himself on the flight schedule too much, don't you think the company and battalion commander would stop it since they are the approval for it? I hope since you are complaining on APC, you took your same complaints to your company and battalion commanders when the "selfish" LTs flew too much for your liking.

Despite trying to fly us as much or more than the WOs, with all the other stuff we PLs had on our plates, we ended up flying about the same or less than the W1/W2s on the same timeline to the unit. Then downrange it was pretty much all equal. Then I went to staff and barely flew. Fortunately I made PC 9 months after showing up to my unit and got to fly a lot as a PC/AMC over the next year I had left as a PL, and my old company flew me as much as I could get away while on staff since I was an asset to them when they were short PCs/AMCs, but I saw a lot of other LTs get hosed by the warrants who controlled the flight schedule. Sometimes it was their own fault for sucking at flying or not being in the books enough, but most of the times they just never had an opportunity to fly because they weren't a priority. As one SP told me, "we are hired help and will be gone in a year so we don't matter."

Those LTs are your leaders and future commanders/staff officers. If you want them to be good aviators, it benefits you to ensure they fly a lot as a PL. 2-3 PLs being stick pigs while they are fresh out of flight school trying to make PC won't affect any WOs in the long run. But those guys getting very little flight time as PLs will affect their ability to be good aviators as staff guys and commanders later, which will affect everyone in the unit. RLOs who got hosed by warrants flying-wise early on tended to be the WO-hating commanders later. I'm sure you loved having commanders/S3s who were WO haters. Also, don't you want your leaders to lead by example? If they flew very little and focused on admin stuff, are they really going to be good leaders in a flight platoon or flight company?

This whole discussion is one reason why I left the army and went to the Air Force, where this problem doesn't exist. Rant off.
^^^^^^^
This needs to be photocopied and pasted in Company AOs. If you donít like the CO, S-3, BN CO, look in a mirror. Did you develop them as JOís?
I should have known better but was not very good at developing LTs.
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:06 PM   #18  
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^^^^^^^
This needs to be photocopied and pasted in Company AOs. If you donít like the CO, S-3, BN CO, look in a mirror. Did you develop them as JOís?
I should have known better but was not very good at developing LTs.
X1000. Some of my best mentors (probably most) were mid grade/senior WOs in my early units - pulling the LT in the stans shop to play stump the chump. Somewhere along the line units became much younger and that seasoning from the wolf pack seemed to dwindle. Have a thick skin and the quiet professionals would take care of you and teach you. Still have tremendous respect for some of those guys..
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:42 PM   #19  
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The flying should be spread around, not simply focused on the LTs. One unit I was in was only focused on LTs. In 2.5 years they progressed two sets of PLs from RL3 to PC, along with 3 other staff position LTs. In those same 2.5 years not a single junior warrant, of the 5 in the company, broke 400 total time or became PC even though there were some solid warrants who worked hard the whole time. Was a case of, hey we need to get these PLs up before they move on to staff... they got the majority of the hours, moved on, then guess what. We've got these new PLs that need hours before they move on to staff... rinse and repeat.

Other units were great and everyone got hours. There is no issue with getting LTs up, as long as they're not the only ones getting the flight time. That first company was run into the ground because all the LTs kept moving on, the junior warrants weren't getting time, and after a PCS the company was going to fall flat on its face with a total of 2 PCs left. Had to pull from other companies to keep that from happening.

So don't get me wrong, yes take care of the young LTs, but not at the point of neglecting everyone else.

As for bringing that issue up with the CC and stands shop, I and others did. The CC was a stick pig and flew the most hours of anyone in the company, including the IPs. As a senior Army captain, and rotor wing pilot, he had 2700 hours. Extreme example and not the norm, but it occasionally happens.
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:40 PM   #20  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
First of all, LTs (as PLs) have 12-24 months to fly and make PC before they have to go to staff, at which point they will fly mins if they are lucky and certainly will not progress from there skill/proficiency wise. So while you may see it as selfish, it's actually their only real shot of making PC prior to commanding while you guys stay in the company most of your career. Then when those guys step into a command a few years later, they have 6 months to make PC by regulation. If they never made it before, then are out of the cockpit for a year or more (usually several years of low flying while on staff/CCC/staff again), they won't have a great opportunity to be worth a damn as a commander (flying wise).

You guys always wanna bash RLOs for being bad pilots, then you wanna bash them when they take the one slim opportunity they have to progress and become assets to the ATP. As a PL, my CO told us (and our SP) we had to put ourselves on as much or more than the WOs. I didn't have a choice. The other PL in my company was the flight schedule guy, but the SP ended up taking it over from him, and he continued with the commander's instruction. And if a "selfish" PL is putting himself on the flight schedule too much, don't you think the company and battalion commander would stop it since they are the approval for it? I hope since you are complaining on APC, you took your same complaints to your company and battalion commanders when the "selfish" LTs flew too much for your liking.

Despite trying to fly us as much or more than the WOs, with all the other stuff we PLs had on our plates, we ended up flying about the same or less than the W1/W2s on the same timeline to the unit. Then downrange it was pretty much all equal. Then I went to staff and barely flew. Fortunately I made PC 9 months after showing up to my unit and got to fly a lot as a PC/AMC over the next year I had left as a PL, and my old company flew me as much as I could get away while on staff since I was an asset to them when they were short PCs/AMCs, but I saw a lot of other LTs get hosed by the warrants who controlled the flight schedule. Sometimes it was their own fault for sucking at flying or not being in the books enough, but most of the times they just never had an opportunity to fly because they weren't a priority. As one SP told me, "we are hired help and will be gone in a year so we don't matter."

Those LTs are your leaders and future commanders/staff officers. If you want them to be good aviators, it benefits you to ensure they fly a lot as a PL. 2-3 PLs being stick pigs while they are fresh out of flight school trying to make PC won't affect any WOs in the long run. But those guys getting very little flight time as PLs will affect their ability to be good aviators as staff guys and commanders later, which will affect everyone in the unit. RLOs who got hosed by warrants flying-wise early on tended to be the WO-hating commanders later. I'm sure you loved having commanders/S3s who were WO haters. Also, don't you want your leaders to lead by example? If they flew very little and focused on admin stuff, are they really going to be good leaders in a flight platoon or flight company?

This whole discussion is one reason why I left the army and went to the Air Force, where this problem doesn't exist. Rant off.
Sure, whatever makes you feel better
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