Warrant Officer or Officer
 

Hey all,

I’m in the Guard and facing a tough decision.. I obviously want to fly but was wondering what we’re the pros and cons between the two routes? Trying to figure out which route I want to take..

Thanks!

Warrants will fly more and maybe have less weighty responsibilities (won't escape collateral duties though).

Commissioned Officers will fly less, and the primary job will typically be military leadership/management, with just enough flying to stay legal. They will get paid more too.

A friend retired as the CO of an Army Guard helicopter squadron. A couple years later, the unit needed IPs and asked him to come back part-time. He agreed, provided they would let him be a Warrant Officer. :cool:

Is this short term or long term? If you want money and don't care about hours then go commissioned. If you want pretty decent pay but a ton more hours, go warrant.

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The real answer is “it depends.” But first, about flight hours...

In the National Guard the amount of flight hours you are able to accomplish is variable but low, no matter if you are commissioned or warrant. Without being a full time IP or MP, either track is likely to get around 90-110 hours a year. (Source: IP Supervisor and AASF Commander). While a warrant in a company will likely fly more during drill and annual training, during the AFTP week flying is primarily an availability calculus. There is little difference in M Day flight time between warrants and commissioned during The week, and quite honestly, when I run a CAFRS report across the board there’s not much difference across the entire year. Additionally,unlike active duty it’s a greater possiblity for commissioned officers to become IPs, IEs and MPs in the Guard.

However, if you deploy, it pretty much goes back to the active duty paradigm where the commissioned officers outside a flight company barely make minimums, if they fly at all, while the rest fly.

So if you remove flight time from the equation, what sort of leader do you want to be?

I’m not too worried about the flight time to be honest. This will be for long term,I fly for a part 135 company on the civilian side and that’s my main focus for time building.

If you might aspire to senior leadership, ie Colonel+ then go commissioned. If you really dig strategy and military history, likewise. Same if you might desire advanced education opportunities.

If you just want to fly stuff, and enjoy "in the trenches" leadership go warrant.

I'll caution that what you think you want now may not be what you want in 15-20 years. Consider carefully. My outlook changed over time, if I had known more about the military I would have gone warrant or enlisted as a teenager. Today I know that would have been a mistake for me, or at least I wouldn't have realized my full potential.

If it's all the same to you, the retirement check at age 60 will be larger for commissioned.

In the Reserves by the time you become a CPT(P)/MAJ then it's likely you'll be thrown into the sand pale of crabs. The winners are those crabs who can "crawl" out of the bucket and become one of the 3-4 assistants to the assistant S3 and allowed to remain on the unit's ATP as a FAC2 aviator (with some luck).

Switch from army guard to ANG and fly there.

Warrant. No question.

If you go RLO it’s usually fairly painless to revert to WO unless you’ve been a jerk. Go WO and it’s more challenging to become a RLO.

Just the fact you are even talking on an airline forum means you should go warrant. Dont go RLO and be a selfish LT who schedules himself to fly above everyone else because he is building time.

Actually, the reverse can be true. FAR more paperwork to revert to WO than say the paperwork associated with a direct commission. Assuming the person qualifies. The paperwork associated with constructive credit alone is a huge headache in itself. As a former Aviation career manager I once had an Air Force academy graduate guy who wanted to join the Reserves. He wanted to circumvent the constructive credit process for CW3 because he was a USAFA graduate. I explained to him that though I was impressed, the Army doesn't give a flying phukk and if you want to get promoted (eventually) to CW3 you have to get this stupid advance course completed.

I had one of those LTs. Made the flight schedule and put himself on it more than any other non PC in the whole company :rolleyes:

First of all, LTs (as PLs) have 12-24 months to fly and make PC before they have to go to staff, at which point they will fly mins if they are lucky and certainly will not progress from there skill/proficiency wise. So while you may see it as selfish, it's actually their only real shot of making PC prior to commanding while you guys stay in the company most of your career. Then when those guys step into a command a few years later, they have 6 months to make PC by regulation. If they never made it before, then are out of the cockpit for a year or more (usually several years of low flying while on staff/CCC/staff again), they won't have a great opportunity to be worth a damn as a commander (flying wise).

You guys always wanna bash RLOs for being bad pilots, then you wanna bash them when they take the one slim opportunity they have to progress and become assets to the ATP. As a PL, my CO told us (and our SP) we had to put ourselves on as much or more than the WOs. I didn't have a choice. The other PL in my company was the flight schedule guy, but the SP ended up taking it over from him, and he continued with the commander's instruction. And if a "selfish" PL is putting himself on the flight schedule too much, don't you think the company and battalion commander would stop it since they are the approval for it? I hope since you are complaining on APC, you took your same complaints to your company and battalion commanders when the "selfish" LTs flew too much for your liking.

Despite trying to fly us as much or more than the WOs, with all the other stuff we PLs had on our plates, we ended up flying about the same or less than the W1/W2s on the same timeline to the unit. Then downrange it was pretty much all equal. Then I went to staff and barely flew. Fortunately I made PC 9 months after showing up to my unit and got to fly a lot as a PC/AMC over the next year I had left as a PL, and my old company flew me as much as I could get away while on staff since I was an asset to them when they were short PCs/AMCs, but I saw a lot of other LTs get hosed by the warrants who controlled the flight schedule. Sometimes it was their own fault for sucking at flying or not being in the books enough, but most of the times they just never had an opportunity to fly because they weren't a priority. As one SP told me, "we are hired help and will be gone in a year so we don't matter."

Those LTs are your leaders and future commanders/staff officers. If you want them to be good aviators, it benefits you to ensure they fly a lot as a PL. 2-3 PLs being stick pigs while they are fresh out of flight school trying to make PC won't affect any WOs in the long run. But those guys getting very little flight time as PLs will affect their ability to be good aviators as staff guys and commanders later, which will affect everyone in the unit. RLOs who got hosed by warrants flying-wise early on tended to be the WO-hating commanders later. I'm sure you loved having commanders/S3s who were WO haters. Also, don't you want your leaders to lead by example? If they flew very little and focused on admin stuff, are they really going to be good leaders in a flight platoon or flight company?

This whole discussion is one reason why I left the army and went to the Air Force, where this problem doesn't exist. Rant off.

RLO you need to attend OCS. Reverting to warrant is a paper work process.
But yeah, I had to redo the advanced course, because “the WO advanced course was different.”🙄 Someone took the armor advanced course, snapped aviation on it then WO branch and made it the WO advanced course. So I learned about the levels of MX for tanks. And where a corps smoke asset gets its resuply of smoke. And how an infantry team clears a trench. You know, useful stuff so I could help my BN CO when we deployed. 🙄

^^^^^^^
This needs to be photocopied and pasted in Company AOs. If you don’t like the CO, S-3, BN CO, look in a mirror. Did you develop them as JO’s?
I should have known better but was not very good at developing LTs.

X1000. Some of my best mentors (probably most) were mid grade/senior WOs in my early units - pulling the LT in the stans shop to play stump the chump. Somewhere along the line units became much younger and that seasoning from the wolf pack seemed to dwindle. Have a thick skin and the quiet professionals would take care of you and teach you. Still have tremendous respect for some of those guys..

The flying should be spread around, not simply focused on the LTs. One unit I was in was only focused on LTs. In 2.5 years they progressed two sets of PLs from RL3 to PC, along with 3 other staff position LTs. In those same 2.5 years not a single junior warrant, of the 5 in the company, broke 400 total time or became PC even though there were some solid warrants who worked hard the whole time. Was a case of, hey we need to get these PLs up before they move on to staff... they got the majority of the hours, moved on, then guess what. We've got these new PLs that need hours before they move on to staff... rinse and repeat.

Other units were great and everyone got hours. There is no issue with getting LTs up, as long as they're not the only ones getting the flight time. That first company was run into the ground because all the LTs kept moving on, the junior warrants weren't getting time, and after a PCS the company was going to fall flat on its face with a total of 2 PCs left. Had to pull from other companies to keep that from happening.

So don't get me wrong, yes take care of the young LTs, but not at the point of neglecting everyone else.

As for bringing that issue up with the CC and stands shop, I and others did. The CC was a stick pig and flew the most hours of anyone in the company, including the IPs. As a senior Army captain, and rotor wing pilot, he had 2700 hours. Extreme example and not the norm, but it occasionally happens.

Sure, whatever makes you feel better

LoL! The best officers I had the pleasure of working with were excellent aviators who didn’t care about chasing hours, but did enjoy flying. The worst were in the Staff/PL Flying Clubs.

1. Being a good pilot does not equal being a good leader (this is coming from an exceptional pilot , yet not very good leader) which is why I went warrant.

2. There will ALWAYS be a new PL trying to make PC so to prioritize them over WO (whose primary mission is to fly) because they have "limited time in the line unit" does not build combat power. At the same time you cannot sit a PL on the sideline to prioritize WOs, they NEED to be proficient aviators. There has to be a balance. The "I need to get mine" mindset is detrimental to a unit.

3. If your goal is to be a master aviator and fly 400 hours a year, the commissioned side is not where you belong. At the sometime, if you are the WO who likes to sit there and sharp shoot everything the leadership puts out, either stand-up and take a leadership role or **** and support your leadership.

First, he statement that it’s just as hard to go from RLO to warrant versus the other way is crap. Normally as a WO you have to go to OCS if you wish to cross over. RLO to warrant it’s much simpler. Yeah, they make you redo the advanced course for CW3... because it’s SOOO different. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

PLs getting experience. It’s a balancing act. Aviation is probably the only branch that does not insist it’s officers be tactically and technically proficient. Yeah, we give it lip service. But if you look at other branches they live it. Try being a successful infantry officer without a ranger tab. Possible, but it’s an uphill battle. Armor without being a master gunner. Aviation? Not so much. Look at how few commissioned officers go to the IP course. I was one of a handful and that was dumb luck.
Yes, you can lead without having flight time. But how well can you employ your assets?
Just look at the Karbala fiasco, essentially a rehash of Lam Son 719. But of course it was. Aviation officers don’t study Lam Son 719. They study Chickamauga instead. “What is Rosencrans had an AH-64.”
Rant over.

So... maybe if the Army didnt have a dual class system (i.e. No Warrants) and ran their aviation like the other FOUR services; the leaders would have an opportunity to actually learn their trade... BEFORE they were, In Charge? Or do we just *have* to be different because we know better?

Kind of like the Army’s need to wear two piece flt suits.... unlike any other branch? At 4 Times the cost. Just one small nonsensical thing that makes you shake your head.

To be clear, there is no one size fits all. I’ve had lots of Great RLO’s and Warrants in my career. I made a choice an knew the ramifications before I started my path. I have little sympathy for a LT that comes up to the end of the PL time and freaks out because they are going to sit at a desk. Do I think they should leave me? H3LL NO. I want them to stay flying. ALOT. If anything, moonlight as an Asst S-3. Sometimes good guys (O-2’s leaving Platoon time) got a bum deal and sat in an S-1,S-2,asst. S-3, S-4 position and never flew. Waste a good Aviator IMHO. Why do we have an Adjutant Branch, Military Intel Branch, or Ordnance Branch then?! When I brought this up to a LTC Battalion CDR I was told the poor LT’s had to learn how the Army worked outside of aviation before they took command....(WTF? this in an RLO made debacle)
My salty Warrant Officer response was: “So, instead of leaving my future leaders with me so I can train them to do their ACTUAL JOB, you take them away from us and teach them stuff your Army trained other LT’s to do as their primary job?! So this whole thing is nothing but a situational training exercise for your types as we lowly ‘do-ers’ mire along like the pony express in reverse continually re-learning lessons for a career as LT’s and CPT’s move along in their careers?”
It is very frustrating to put so much time and effort in only to see your great LT/buddy leave for a silly job others spend a career doing.
It is a broken system.
Just my little rant.

Yep, took the exact same course online. 57k dial-up was faster than the Army's net back in those day. PITA!

Agreed. I've always thought the Army should do away with WOs (why in the hell does the Army need tech warrants?). I would much rather respect both the person and the rank versus the latter. And it's tough to respect your boss if they aren't the subject matter expert with regards to tactics and flying. Oh, there's going to be those here that will say "Oh they're ultimately trained to be strategists not expert flyers." Well, I think it can be soundly argued that you can't be the smartest guy (strategist) in the room if you aren't an expert with tactics and flying. I've flown with and trained a bazillion RLOs in a thirty plus year career. A fair amount of them were decent pilots. Many of them could have been a lot better if the Army would have gotten out of the way.

My present day assessment of a conventional war with China or Russia: we will get smoked. But hey, at least we'll all have nice teeth and a fresh flu shot...

P.S. You bring up an interesting point (reminder) of when I was a NCO in the Army in the mid-late 80s-which was a totally different Army in those days. There were no O-2/O-3 aviators doing personnel tasks down at the squadron HQs. If you had a personnel or adjutant issue you went to the (GUESS) base AG or S1 office. Gee, what a concept huh?

I tried leaving comments but soon realized no one was reading them. I even got nasty in a drunken rant hoping I would get some kind of response, even a smack down. Nope. Dada. Zip. It was then obvious to me that they just wanted us to check the box.

Some I understood. S-2, work in the S-3 shop. Learn how to employ your assets.
S-1... less so.
160th does this (or did when I was there). S-1 is AG, S-2 is MI, S-4 is QM.
S-3 shop is staffed by very experienced RLOs, WOs and NCO’s. When I was an OPSO in the S-3 I had some of the best NCOs I have ever encountered working for me. They made me look like a stud when I realized I had reached my level of incompetence.