C17MooseDriver

The VSP was to get out of Active Duty, not necessarily out of military service, please don't confuse the two.

The point of this whole thread is that the Air Force is changing the rules that were agreed upon when someone elected to take the VSP.

I always find it humorous people makes those comments about folks who take the VSP. Don't forget, this is what the Air Force wants folks to do. Not sure if it was intentional, but your post sounds like you have a grudge against those who took the VSP.

TipTip35

I was told it didnt count those (i.e you get put on 30, 60 , 90, 180 days orders)

So Wonwee

You are 100% correct. The 40,000 person RIF is for the active duty. The reserve and guard units can and do determine their own needs. If this was not true, then we would have never been briefed on Palace Front (going to a guard/reserve unit through the front door). That last statement that was previously highlighted is a LIE.

flyfish

If you're hiring, I'll take you up on the offer. But until then, how bout the AF sticking the their contract. I don't suddenly get to tell the Air Force what I want, so how is it they can change the rules after they saw their "mistake." Our AD careers are already sunk since we've become "one of those guys" and if the change affects my family, you better believe I'll fight it. Being "lucky" doesn't make me stupid.

flyfish

I specifically asked this question, including AGR/Full-time anything, to our MPF prior to applying and was told they only deduct it from your retirement pay. It wouldn't be the first time they lied to me or were "uninformed" to put it PC. The deductions begin when and IF you receive a retirement. It worked that way at the end of Gulf War 1 when guys were paid to leave early and paid it back as a deduction out of their monthly retirement checks.

I know a guy who is on full time right now. I'll try to get a hold of him to see if there is a precedent set. I'm sure if this happened to him, he'd have sounded the alarm already.

MoosePileit

VSP folks- this will be long winded, but I want you to have a chance at getting ahead of the speedtraps- my story- I was not origianally eligible- Comm'd in '93 but not AD until '95 for a grad school ed delay- was told I was '95 yeargroup w/ 0 balance overage. 2 months later they decide that the eligibility yeargroup was based on Commissioning date, not the start of active duty and I jumped into the '93 yeargroup w/ 77 overage- had to find that out on my own. Had until the 12 year point on Active Duty- Jan, to have my DOS.

- First- Check you DD214, Cert. of Release or Discharge from Active Duty- for those not out yet, it's what they build at your pre and Final Outprocessing at MPF. Down at the bottom it should say "Force Shaping- VSP" in block 28. If it doesn't, you were either early in the program to actually separate or your MPF wasn't given guidance yet. This I believe is the most critical record, for starters. It will be a tie to whatever they may try and do to/ with you down the road. There is a pay schedule to look at IF you eventually take a Reserve retirement, your inservice recruiter can show it to you. It's the same text as the post DS1 VSI. (post Desert Storm 1 Voluntary Separation Initiative)

A couple notes up front- you have a 6 month window from DOS for you last move paid for by the Gov, upto the distance from Home of Record to first duty station.

If you need to go back to Active Duty in the future, you have to pay back VSP- you probably have some bros who went back active duty after 9/11, if they had a VSI from post DS1, this may have applied already- ask 'em.

Q: If I receive the VSP and later return to active duty do I have to pay the VSP back?

A: Yes, Per law, an officer who accepts VSP and later returns to active duty (regardless of Service), including a full time active duty position in the Reserve or Guard, will have an amount deducted from their pay (schedule to be determined) until the total deducted from basic pay equals the total amount received. Exceptions: members involuntarily recalled to active duty or full-time National Guard duty IAW certain subsections of US Code 10 may not be subject to recoupment. This is not a change to the program, but many officers may not be aware of this provision. If you know you have VSP coming and you are in OEF/OIF/HOA this year, you can max out your TSP upto the $44 k or so limits, but VSP itself doesn't get to go in TSP if you have it.

On your DOS or the next day, remember to swear into the IRR and have your inservice recruiter send in your paperwork- that has to be square if you don't do a Palace Front and walk over to an AFRC unit directly.

Q: If I take the VSP, can I still go into the Reserves? Guard? Civil Service?

A: Yes, you may enter the Guard and Reserve. However, should you become eligible for full retirement benefits, you will be required to pay back your VSP once you start collecting retirement pay. Additionally, you may not apply for VSP if you have already applied for another force shaping program like PALACE CHASE. Furthermore, all officers who accept VSP and separate will be required to serve a minimum of three years in the non-participating Individual Ready Reserve. This is inactive duty and you will be subject to recall, as are all individuals serving in the IRR. Generally, the non-participating IRR is not required to perform duty or meet annual training requirements. There are no restrictions against receiving VSP and being accepted for employment in the Civil Service.

Q: If I take the VSP and then retire as civil service will I have to pay the separation back?

A: No ( IS THIS WHAT the AGR question revolved around? I am a T/R so I havent' seen this yet!)
A: Yes. However, if you later qualify for retirement pay resulting from your Guard or Reserve status, the amount you received for VSP will be recouped from your retirement pay

http://ask.afpc.randolph.af.mil/forc...MasterFAQs.asp

Eventual payback planning formula after an age 60 Reseve Retirement:
http://www.defense.gov/comptroller/f...ch/07b0104.pdf.

formula---divide the
total days service for retirement prior to the
the total days of service for separation by the
retirement: the resulting fraction is the percentage
of retired pay to recoup until the entire amount
due has been collected. Also apply this collection
rate to any increases in the member’s retired pay
resulting from any cost-of-living increases.

Sorry for being a bit long winded but I did some checking before signing. Also- You are not to get ANY transition healthcare per the current message, it can be pricey, about $900-1300/quarter for family insurance. Turns out TRICARE showed me as having 180 days coverage in their system- I think someone hit a wrong key somewhere, which is what IN-voluntary separatee receive.

For all those wishing those leaving active duty via TSP w/o joining the AFRC or ANG just take the money and run- you'll make GREAT squadron commanders and above, with folks leaving from under you whether you pay us or not! My friends and I are saving a new unit over $1M, more I guess, in training by walking in their door as they take on a new aircraft. Taxpayers make out ok on the deal now and in the future. For myself, it's a nice loan- which I'd have gladly forgone and separated at the end of my ADSC.

flyfish

Now you're saying 'devil speak'! Again, I was briefed we will get 180 days of health care after our DOS. Did my MPF just take a dump on this thing or what? Guess I need to go back in and firm everything up.

I think a bunch of us would have left had they just opened the door for ADSC waivers...I never asked them to pay us too. I don't make the rules but I was, sure as hell, taught to play by them.

Appreciate the post by the way. I'll be taking a copy with me to the MPF soon.

MoosePileit

Flyfish- you are most welcome. DO ABSOLUTELY check on the healthcare. I SHOW IT IS NOT GIVEN TO YOU in VSP: cut and paste:
http://ask.afpc.randolph.af.mil/forc...fits_Chart.doc, which is the Separation Benefits 21 Nov 06 Separation Services and Benefits Chart


Healthcare started as a "yes" then became a "no" later in the message traffic on AFPC, with some grumbling but no backpeddling- I use message loosely, they own the website, posting and pulling to their best suit and mood. I don't think Tricare or the hospital got the update, or I was miscoded as separating- since there are both voluntary and involuntary programs, I could understand that a mis-key on the tech's part. Could have saved myself $350 as it turned out, but I slept better while doing lots of travel on the job hunt circuit before I got up and running on orders- Golden Rule company bound us w/ United Healthcare that we used pays back unused portions, you pay for the first quarter up front.

For All, here's some more from the AFPC site:
http://ask.afpc.randolph.af.mil/forceshape/vsphome.asp

QUOTE:
For MPFs:


A revised version of Attachement 11 to MPFM 06-50, Air Force Force Shaping Program FY07, was sent to MPFs. Effective 16 Mar 07, MPFs should use this revised Statement of Understanding (SOU) for VSP applications; this revision does not invalidate the previous SOU, nor does this mean that those officers who signed the old version are exempt from this repayment requirement.
We have the new approved SPD Code for VSP; MCN will be used for those who are separating with "VSP". Currently MilPDS and DFAS systems have not been updated and are not able to use this SPD Code, therefore, when updating the VSP separation request in MilPDS, please continue to use the temp SPD Code "FCC." We will let you know when to use the new code for updating the separation request and will also do a mass update to change everyone who was updated with the temp SPD Code FCC to reflect the new SPD Code MCN.

When completing separation orders and the DD Form 214, use the new code MCN; do not use the temp code. The temp code is purely for purposes of pay transactions. Narrative reason for separation for the DD Form 214, block 28 will read: "Force Shaping-VSP."
ENDQUOTE.

Here's the new Attachment 11, or a cover-all for what they want to ammend- if you are before the date of the message for this attachment you cannot be held liable- NO WAY- it would be a law ex post facto- they couldn't do that, surely... hmmm. anyway: of course they are not nice enough to put the retirement repay calculator on the message, I think my formula is correct from previous post. U.S. Code TITLE 10 is ARMED FORCES and Title 14 is the Coast Guard, so this looks like a catch-all phrase that may need the friendly JAGs/Lawyers/ADCs to figure out. Reading between the lines: folks have pressed the issue on disability/pay after a VSP, fought about serving in the IRR, whether they wanted to or not, etc. I think the VSP is one heck of a nice loan up front, just budget repaying after that Reserver retirement check starts...

QUOTE
ATTACHMENT 11

READY RESERVE AGREEMENT TO RECEIVE VOLUNTARY SEPARATION PAY

I agree to serve in the Ready Reserve for a period of not less than 3 years following my separation from active duty.

I understand that if I have not completed my military service obligation (MSO) at the time of my separation from active duty, the 3-year period I am now agreeing to serve in the Ready Reserve will not begin until after I have completed my MSO.

I understand the Air Force is not under any obligation to offer me an appointment in the Ready Reserve and I understand that I may not receive an appointment to the Ready Reserve. I understand that I will not be appointed in the Ready Reserve if I am separated for reasons that make me ineligible for such appointment.

I understand that if I later become eligible for retired or retainer pay under Title 10 or Title 14, U.S.C., based on active duty service for which I received separation pay, I will have an amount deducted from each payment of that retired or retainer pay until the amount deducted equals the total amount of separation pay.

I understand that if I later become eligible (as a result of the service upon which my separation pay amount is based) for disability compensation administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA), the DVA will withhold such payments until the amount withheld equals the gross amount of separation pay.

I understand that if I have received any part/all of voluntary separation pay under this program and later return to active duty (regardless of Service), including a full time active duty position in the Reserve or Guard, I will have the amount deducted from my pay (schedule to be determined) until such time that the total deducted from basic pay equals the total amount received. Exceptions: members involuntarily recalled to active duty or full-time National Guard duty IAW certain subsections of US Code 10.



____________________________________
NAME/GRADE/SSN/DATE

ENDQUOTE.

Of all the dumb surveys I've had to do on active duty, they forgot to ask for an exit survey:

Would you have left on your ADSC w/o any VSP?

A. Y
B. N
C. YGBSM, YBYSA!
D. A and C.

I gotta get these down to pithier answers, but I'll bet you $100k that it's worth the read for some...

C17MooseDriver

When I separated, I never did anything for the ready reserves besides sign the contract. How do I update my info and so forth? Do I need to contact anyone.

SKE-17

How R the waves dude? 180 days is the magic # for being on orders. However, there is a provision for exemption from payback if you are involuntarily activated.

If anyone wants info I have some good email trails from the force shaping board...let me know.