Army Rotorheads at the 'Big 6'
 

Any Army helicopter pilots here at AAL, UAL, DAL, SWA, FDX or UPS?
If so, what were your stats when you got hired?

p.s. if you had any Army fixed-wing time, you don't count. ;)

I wouldn't expect many at SWA, UPS, or FedEx since they don't count any rotor time.

I know tons of dudes but most that come to mind had army fw time or went AF air guard to get fw time before getting hired by a major.
There are a ton of rw guys who are at the regionals now because of these rtp programs. They will start hitting the majors in about two years.

There’s a FB Page called RTAG (Rotary To Airlines Group) Nation. Many on that site who have made the leap at all the “big six”.

I was following their public page and RTAG Nation group closely and have to disagree. The only mil helo guys at the legacies in that group also had significant Army turboprop and/or jet time (the Dash, C-12, UC-35) which qualifies them as mil fixed-wing pilots. I think it’s dishonest they were advertising rotorheads going to AA or United when they had at least 1,000 Army FW TPIC.

The only helo guys there that had zero Army FW time in the group were at carriers like JetBlue, Allegiant, Spirit, or Frontier.

Not even total time? Ouch.

Same with Air Force and Army FW. Even before RTP was a concept, there were still military helo pilots getting their certificates on their own dime or with their GI Bill and going to the airlines.

I have mixed feelings about that group. It’s a great opportunity for a helo guy in the right context, but sometimes not the best move. I have seen a trend since the inception of the RTAG and the RTPs that it has gained its own momentum - a lot of guys who are believing that they’ll do a short stint at a regional and be moving on quickly. I believe the reality settles in quickly starting with such low airplane time. The merits of mil service in and of itself helping in the application process can be debated, but straight helo - especially RTP - to legacy will still be a lengthy road for most. All my opinion of course.

Exactly, couldn’t have said it better myself. Unless hiring practices change with downward pressure on hiring minimums, military helicopter flight time currently has little to no value to any highly sought after career airline job. At best, it’s a “veteran” block check on the resume right now. I feel like some of these RTPs and affiliated groups are selling the dream that they’ll be at the Big 6 within a few years because of the elusive “pilot shortage” when that won’t be the case for most.

The only military helicopter guys I know at the legacies got hired with credentials and times similar to those of the highly competitive civilian applicants. I’m sure their military service helped make them competitive within their hour range, but their helicopter hours alone didn’t seem to give them an advantage like it does Air Force pilots.

Definitely a different perspective for Navy RW, I've seen a lot of success there, quick trip to the regional then off to the bigs.

Sounds like the issue is FW UPT training... USAF and sea services get that, army generally doesn't. Many navy RW also serve FW IP tours.

That’s an excellent point because the training source does seem to be a discriminator. I’d even venture to say that Navy pilots do a better job networking because they have more alumni from the jet side already flying at the majors.

Exactly. I almost look at RTAG in a similar light as regional recruiters. That isn’t to say the intent is malicious, but when the leader of that pack has no experience in the industry, well...

Unless it has changed, I don't believe FedEx, UPS, or SWA count any rotor time, even toward total time. To them I'm a 1300 hour pilot (nearly 1000 of that being in the E175).

Alaska will count half, up to 1000 hours, toward total. The rest, as far as I know, will count it toward total, but you still need your FW turbine time.


Despite the military flying, I have no illusion of moving up anytime soon. Working on my Master's, have ongoing volunteer experience, submitted my bid for CA and will move up as soon as able, zero failures/violations of any kind. The only way I think the Army rotor flying helps is after I get my 1000 TPIC when the legacies are looking at everyone with 1000 TPIC and I have that military flight experience and they don't. Time will tell.

Yes, this point is obvious - once looking at that final employer. No “bro” (good God I hate that word:D ) network exists in most instances - not like the Army guys wouldn’t or couldn’t. Also Rickair’s point is accurate - beginning FW and getting the FW instructor tour definitely makes a totally different playing field from Army helo.

I know several former Army RW pilots at legacies who had zero military FW time. Yes, they do time at a regional first.

I don't fly a trip anymore that I don't have some Army guy call me out because of my US Army lanyard. We are everywhere!

Are you (or anyone for that matter) going to get a call from the "Big 6 having only US Army Helicopter time? NO!

Are you going to have to go to a regional, get a FW transition, get 2000+ professional FW hours and probably some FWTPIC time to get the call? YOUBETCHA!

Will some guys (that do all the above) never get the call? YES.

Will there be unicorns that get hired without a degree? Without FWTPIC? With <1500 FW Hours? YES. What are the odds? Just a WAG, but I'd say 1:5,000 legacy hires.

Will having RW IP/IE/SP/MP/ME, ASO qualifications make you stand out? YES!

Has there been hiring in the last 25 years like we are seeing now? NO!

Hiring at the majors/legacies is cyclical. They are hiring like crazy right now, and it appears they will be hiring at this pace for the next 5+ years. A lucky few will have been hired at the beginning of this wave (2014-2015) and those hired in 2025 will be lucky too, but not as lucky as those hired early. Seniority is king.

If you're on the fence, don't stay there long. If you aren't making strides to become hireable don't give free rent in your head to those that are busting their a$$ to get hired. Even tho there is a pilot shortage, the "Big 6" don't/won't have a shortage of applicants that have degrees and professional FW time. IOW they are not going to need to lower their standards, much.

ApachePhil
AH-64, MH-60L (DAP), UH-60, C-12, B737
IP, IE, SP, MP, Legacy FO

Well said AP!

I think most of those entering now will at least be able to find their way to an ULCC or one of the better ACMI’s.
Yes, they should go in with eyes open and understand the negatives, but the QOL of airline flying blows away the Army. No chicken plate in 120 degrees. The worst hotel blows away the best tent. No more TRATS or MRE’s. 🤮 No General Order 1. Or JRTC. Or NTC.

NSDQ

I have fond memories of JRTC...

Actually I have fond memories of NOLA. I think the JRTC memories are repressed :confused:

Actually my JRTCs weren’t too bad. We did them out of Hurlbert. Picked up our “customers” somewhere, then flew them into the box.

They will look back on their army time and miss it. Airline flying aint all that btw. Boring.

The big wave of retirements is just kicking in, great time to make the move, will never be better.

Meh. I think not. Were you Air Force or Army?
Airline flying is what you make it. Am I doing a FAST rope to a moving ship? No. But the suck side isn’t there. On a four day “overnight” in Weikiki. Last month it was Istanbul, Cairo, Leipzig, Djibouti (fortunately no overnight), Reiga, Istanbul, Chicago, Anchorage, Inchon, Hong Kong, back to Leipzig, Cincinnati. A few DHs in business class. Hung out and drank in a few nice lounges. Not really boring.

Yes, but did you earn a JRTC feather in cap by sneaking over to Leesville and completing the Leesville Wagon Master challenge? :eek:

Ha! Airline flying not really boring? Puleez.

On the contrary, "boring" is precisely what makes it "all that". Well, that and the pay plus all the time off.

Plenty of time and money to do whatever it is in life that *does* excite you, rather than whatever forced and unexpected excitement resulted from flying for Uncle Sam.

Wait, you don’t miss the excitement of “new duty station roulette” every two years? The joy of telling your kids that they need to move again? The excitement of your spouse trying to find a job when they move all the time? The excitement of being deployed for a year +? Going to a porta potty in 120 degrees and being terrified of dropping my 9mm into it? Or of dreading off duty phone calls?
Yeah there were some good times. But miss it? Nope.

At my age I was looking for boring (and relative low risk) when I retired last summer. I could be making better money in the sandbox, or living at home (in base) with HEMS...

I'm perfectly happy without a set of NVGs on my head or somebody trying to kill me.

I'll settle for a divert or autoland every once in a while. I like air conditioning and a $hitter that follows me around wherever I go.

It's only boring if you make it that way.

I suppose, if you live to work, you may be right. I do have fond memories of my time in the Army; I had, arguably, the most interesting enlisted job and WO flying job in the Army.

My current job may be considered boring, but it is only 75-80 hours of my month. The rest of my month is now so much better/more exciting than life in the US Army. If your isn’t I suggest doing something different.

Thread drift: somebody mentioned above that airline FLYING is boring. It is.

Comparing life styles military versus airline is a separate topic.

No. Some of us just aren’t really vocal. Are you whining?
Some of us made the jump to the regionals Pre-RTAG and maintained Army RW flying in the Guard/Reserves.
While I did have Army FW time prior to making it to one of the ‘Big 6’, I also had 121 PIC at a regional on my resume that outshined the Army flight time. The army FW time was definitely not the majority of the FW time on my resume. I was asked to go the the Army’s version of FW training BECAUSE of my regional experience. Nothing disingenuous about the RTAG site. There are a few of us old ‘APTAP’ folks still milling about.
To clear up, or fine tune something you erroneously spoke to, our ‘FLIGHT’ time in Helicopters may not be counted in the Flight Time Grid by some folks in the hiring departments, but your leadership roles while acting as a military aviator *WILL* be counted. i.e. Stan Pilot, Safety Officer, etc. So, please do not discount your experiences.
You will be surprised at the looks and requests for more ‘war stories’ you get when someone finds out you flew RW in the sandbox or mountains. Do not underestimate the importance of being able to interact/tell stories/bond with your team mates in the 121 World! To the point, I love finding out that someone flew 130’s and then seeing their face when I thank them for feeding me. They look at me quizzically until I tell them about a horrible little dirt strip I flew -64’s off of that is tucked into a sh!tty corner of never-never land. When I say: “I always love meeting you folks! You guys kept me fed and watered. We really loved watching you come in and drop off beans, bullets and what not! Thanks!” With out exception, each one lights up and remembers a tough approach, landing and challenging takeoff. And here is some grunt saying ‘thanks!’ Simple. Brothers/Sisters in Arms. Nothing cosmic. It is all stuff you should have learned at the age of 4 in the sandbox.

The other guys here are way more qualified than I. Listen to what they have to say. They walked this path long before I did. Do Not cry in your wheaties or discount your flight time or experiences. Get after it. Grind away. Clock 3000 to 4000 hours of FW time with 1000 PIC and come on over! The Water is Warm! Enjoy your Brothers and Sisters in Arms while you’re in the service, but at some point, the focus becomes YOUR needs and not the Army’s.
To the folks that think the Army’s Needs always rule: “God Bless Ya!” I no longer do.

P.S. JetBlue is a fine company and offers a great product. While I don’t fly for them, they employ some great people. If B6 had offered me a job before I got the one I have, I would have been ecstatic.
Good Luck and realize that that the Army pushes you down IOT make you stay. The company I fly for is polar opposite. Heck!, even my little girl loves my employer. Find a place that values You, and doesn’t tell you that you might as well stay because you can’t make as much anywhere else... (yes, I received the propaganda the army pushes instead of actually fixing problems)
Take the Leap!

Started with someone stating we would miss our time in the Army. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

I miss all kinds of crap I did in the mil... doesn't mean I'd want to do it again today :rolleyes:

Exactly what I tell people. I miss it every day, but there is more I don’t miss. Overall, though, yes my life is WAY more boring and the job satisfaction is nowhere remotely close. However, as someone else said earlier, work is just work now, not my life. I now get my excitement from other places on my terms.

Yeah. Combat flying is for the young. I was once a 40 something IP giving a young WO1 training in a combat AO. I hadn’t had a day off in 13 days. Needed the CE to help me out of the cockpit, help me out of my chicken plate and give me another 800 mg Motrin for my back. We were supposed to be off the next day and I was looking forward to sleeping in, watching some DVDs while sipping some “mouth wash”. While I’m debriefing the S-2 the WO-1 comes in from turning in our secure gear at ops. He’s all excited. We’re on the mission board for the next day. Flight lead. The CO and flight surgeon are behind him. I almost started crying. I knew what was coming. Some kind of song and dance from the CO and flight surgeon how they needed me to fly, flight surgeon would give me another extension, and I would do it.
Do I regret doing it? No. Was it a great experience? Yup. Would I sign up to do it again? Nope.

At OBAP today. FedEx, UPS and Southwest clearly don't value rotor time, even military, because they don't count it at all. None. My impression is that American and United don't care about it much either, they seem to count it as any regular (aka civilian piston) time because their honest advice and suggestion is to get 3500-5500 total time with 1000-3000 121 TPIC. Not a complaint, I valued my Army rotor time. But don't fly helicopters in the military if your goal is mainline. And if you're there now, don't expect to get there any sooner because of it. Just be happily surprised if you do. In the meantime keep flying, building time, upgrade, get that TPIC, and enjoy the journey.

About to retire from the Army with 20 yrs flying DUSTOFF with Korea, OIF, OEF, deployments under my belt. I know going in its going to be a tough row uphill, first with the regionals, and later (maybe) with the Legacy/Majors, but I think its worth it. I'll miss my time in the uniform, but not that much. Ready for the change.

Very good post. I used to talk to rotor guys fairly often, and would hint towards the above. More and more - especially since the start of the RTPs - my opinion (similar to the post above) was received as overly negative, etc. I had about 1k charter FW prior to a regional. Slugging it out now at a WO building TPIC, learning, and enjoying the journey - as much as possible at my regional ;) Hope to beat the flow, but the closer I get to flowing, the more I think my 2k RW means 0. Not arguing that it should or shouldn’t - that’s another discussion. Just looking at the reality of things.

When I retired, I was a rotary and fixed wing IP/IE/CFI/CFII/EIEIO. I currently have over 5000 hours, over 2200 FW and over 1000 FWTPIC. I have applications in with all the majors, and haven't heard from any of them. I dropped an app with my preferred regional and they were calling me within 8 hours. If you are in the Army and can get any jet time at all, volunteer for it. It will make all the difference. I had a recruiting specialist tell me to quit my current job and go get jet time. She said she didn't care where, just anywhere, and said I would be at a major within a year. I have a plan, but am using "tactical patience.":)

It was 44 degrees C when I took off yesterday. With no A/C...

I have the same feelings toward that RTAG group as well which is unfortunate. There was some good info on there for guys starting out, but the narrative they are selling for most people there is absolutely false. Haven’t followed or paid attention to the group since after it started so I couldn’t say how it is now.


To answer your question, yes. But I will tell you that I feel like an outlier. 5000+ total, 3600 RW, of which about 3000 was PIC. 2500 in UH-60, and another 500 or so in the EC-135 and other EMS aircraft after I got out. Had just over 1000 hours of 121 time in about 19 months as a regional FO when I got hired at UA. My total FW time at that point was just over 1300. Didn’t use any RTP, just did the time and ratings on my own over the years. But I also had a lot of other boxes checked that helped me. Former SP/IE, Masters degree, Part 135 Chief Pilot, I started a non-profit, etc.

My point is that it’s possible, but I am definitely not the norm and I understand that. Do everything you can outside of flying to check those other boxes.