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No formation landings in UPT

Old 06-30-2020, 07:32 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Oh grasshopper. You’ve obviously not seen the beauty of rolling formation AB takeoffs. BT F-15 standard departure for years.
That's probably because the last time they were done is when BT was shut down, which was ~26 years ago...when I was 10.

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
After instructing at the RAG/FRS/RTU for 7.5 years, I saw many more dangerous situations potentially develop out of formation takeoffs than I ever did formation landings. This is the ONLY formation landing mishap I even know about between the USAF/USN/USMC.
Honestly, in all my form TO/LNDs, I saw very few dangerous incidents. However, I know, I'm glad I wasn't landing next to my buddy who had his left main gear collapse on him recently. I could see the questions from the board now. "So why again were you practicing something that isn't even a currency item?" Would you survive that board...high likely. But I'd expect quickly see them become prohibited as they are in the 5th gen world.

Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
...Good words...
The best defense for keeping them in UPT as I've ever seen. If the experts, especially the lifers (not derogatory) at UPT bases see them as needed, then my all means, keep doing them. I guess my point is, they don't need to keep doing them on behalf of the CAF, because we're just not doing them anymore. No matter how much the old timers love to hold on the doing everything the way they did it, I really don't see that changing anytime soon.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:08 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by crewdawg View Post
That's probably because the last time they were done is when BT was shut down, which was ~26 years ago...when I was 10. .
When we used them for the stated purpose doesn’t seem relevant. I was just pointing out that your concerns about stopping, running up, etc. aren’t valid if you use a proper formation takeoff to get max jets airborne. If it’s being done to be expeditious then it would be foolish to do a static takeoff.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:16 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
When we used them for the stated purpose doesn’t seem relevant. I was just pointing out that your concerns about stopping, running up, etc. aren’t valid if you use a proper formation takeoff to get max jets airborne. If it’s being done to be expeditious then it would be foolish to do a static takeoff.
A rolling formation take-off in the Hun would have been interesting—“I’m lead, now you’re lead, Nah, I want lead back”. Fortunately, on a hot day in Tucson, the roll was long enough to sort it all out before rotate.
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Old 06-30-2020, 03:45 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
A rolling formation take-off in the Hun would have been interesting—“I’m lead, now you’re lead, Nah, I want lead back”. Fortunately, on a hot day in Tucson, the roll was long enough to sort it all out before rotate.
Funny. I guess the -100 was a "binary" AB? Either on or off and no in-between.
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Old 06-30-2020, 03:45 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
A rolling formation take-off in the Hun would have been interesting—“I’m lead, now you’re lead, Nah, I want lead back”. Fortunately, on a hot day in Tucson, the roll was long enough to sort it all out before rotate.
in the days of...

Kick the tire, light the fire, brief on Guard, first one on the runway is lead“
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:23 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Funny. I guess the -100 was a "binary" AB? Either on or off and no in-between.
AB wasn’t variable, but the basic engine was while in burner. AB light-off wasn’t always exactly when you hoped, worked 95% of the time, but an AB in the weather, it’d surprise you. Throttle response was like the Tweet, slow. “Pilot to Engine, more power, please”. “Engine to Pilot, gimme a sec”.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
AB wasn’t variable, but the basic engine was while in burner. AB light-off wasn’t always exactly when you hoped, worked 95% of the time, but an AB in the weather, it’d surprise you. Throttle response was like the Tweet, slow. “Pilot to Engine, more power, please”. “Engine to Pilot, gimme a sec”.
So, how did that work? Variable engine RPM in burner?
Could you be in full grunt and go to idle on the engine?
Different control for engine RPM and AB selection?
I’m obviously using F-15/ T-38 point of reference with full forward as AB, so no way to throttle back in either one of those without also throttling back on AB.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:12 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
So, how did that work? Variable engine RPM in burner?
Could you be in full grunt and go to idle on the engine?
Different control for engine RPM and AB selection?
I’m obviously using F-15/ T-38 point of reference with full forward as AB, so no way to throttle back in either one of those without also throttling back on AB.
I believe yes...could be in AB in idle.

I think the Thud was the same way, from stuff I’ve read.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:41 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
So, how did that work? Variable engine RPM in burner?
Could you be in full grunt and go to idle on the engine?
Different control for engine RPM and AB selection?
I’m obviously using F-15/ T-38 point of reference with full forward as AB, so no way to throttle back in either one of those without also throttling back on AB.
Yea, basically, the throttle varied the engine RPM changing the discharge into the AB section. At around 86%, IIRC and it’s been awhile, the fuel controller cut off fuel to the AB spray bars, killing the burner. We had a run of failed solenoids that failed to close the AB fuel at around 86% resulting in the raw fuel being and mysteriously running out of fuel. I’d have to dig out the -1 to refresh my mind and I’m not sure I’m game for that. Yes, the J57 and J75 were similar.

MIL and AB were both full forward, with AB being outboard.
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:06 PM
  #20  
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I discussed this years ago at the duty desk. The theory was that in a Hornet, with weather below TACAN mins, all you’ve got is the PAR to get you down. If you’re NORDO, that means you’re sucking LAU down to the runway—formation landing. There simply isn’t enough time to execute flight lead sep on final if you’re breaking out at 200’ AGL. Made sense to me.

Only did it a few times. Once was a syllabus item, others were prebriefed ‘why not’ form landings.

It was fun, and a good tool for the toolbox, imo.
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