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tnkrdrvr 11-16-2021 08:52 AM

So you want to be an Airline Pilot
 
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the mil to airline transition the past few years. Based on my experience and the experience of a number of peers who have also made the transition, I’ve come up with a rough framework/checklist of things to think about as you prepare to make the transition.

1. Know what you want
Lots of people get hung up on QOL but fail to define what that is for your family. Number of days off matters, so does nights gone, weekends vs weekdays, size of paycheck, retirement benefits, travel benefits, etc. You need to sit down and rack/stack these and other factors to determine how to weigh QOL for your family. Coming out of the military, you are suddenly faced with a plethora of previously unexplored options. It takes time and communication to think through these things and avoid AIDS.

2. Know what you need
These are the non-negotiables. The things your career must at a minimum provide. You can suck up a year of 1st year pay, but doing a six-twelve month stop in the regionals only to roll into 1st year pay at a major maybe a bridge too far. Income to cover your min acceptable lifestyle. Enough time at home to meet family obligations. This is something that may require some uncomfortable conversations, but will ensure you don’t go down a path that leads to having to bail on the industry. A surprisingly large number of military guys retiring from the military don’t fully understand the importance of getting their ducks in a row before retirement to make that transition doable.

3. Know the consequences of living one place vs another
This isn’t just the standard commute vs in domicile conversation. Additionally, you need to factor in the wide disparity in veterans benefits between states. In some states, veterans’ kids can go to college for free or at greatly reduced cost. This can be a substantial effective income boost. Tax rates vary dramatically and so does cost of living. Finally, you want to live somewhere you actually will enjoy being for a good chunk of your life. This takes a lot of research and I’d recommend narrowing it down to your top ten or less before diving into the research.

4. Ensure your family is onboard
Some guys can’t stand the military life and bailing has been a foregone conclusion for years. Others have spent twenty plus years in and will miss it enormously. Most are somewhere in between. Leaving the military is a huge transition for your family as well. Make sure that you and they have open lines of communication on what expectations are and how this will affect everyone. There is no point in landing your dream job if you lose the family it was supposed to benefit in the process. As a military pilot you have a number of lucrative opportunities available to you besides the airline industry. Don’t be afraid to explore those as well. The airlines aren’t for every family.

5. Technicalities or are you actually competitive for a job.
Ensure you take advantage of the numerous interview and application prep companies to maximize your odds and get feedback on how you compare to those getting hired right now. A 1500 hour tanker pilot isn’t as competitive as a 1500 hour F35 guy. A 1000 hour F35 guy isn’t even getting his foot in the door at a legacy. (Most of this fluctuates with pilot demand) Some guys don’t want to drop the $3-500 on prep services. This is a small investment in maximizing your odds at your first choice company and minimizing the odds you wind up at a company lower on your priority list.

6. Focus your energy on your top tier airlines first (application reviews, job fairs, etc) and as you have time work your way down. Have a plan B, C, and D for if this airline thing doesn’t work out. There are many opportunities out there, don’t shoehorn yourself in a crappy airline you hate over a non flying gig you’d love.

Finally, good luck the hiring floodgates are opening. Seniority does matter(it’s not everything). The sooner you get that class date, the sooner you can relax and deal with everything else involved in leaving Uncle Sam.

crewdawg 11-20-2021 10:17 AM

Awesome post tnkrdrvr. I didn't come from the AD so my viewpoint is just slightly different, but I'll throw down a few minor additions to your post. There are a few posts buried in here by AlbieF15 who gave a great timeline for AD guys separating. I'll see if I can dig it up.



As a military pilot you have a number of lucrative opportunities available to you besides the airline industry. Don’t be afraid to explore those as well. The airlines aren’t for every family.

Keep stoking those opportunities even if you do go to the airlines. You may be surprised how much free time you'll have available after you get a little seniority. At the very least, you still have contacts just in case we have another big down turn or you have medical issues...or you just don't like the airline life.



Seniority does matter(it’s not everything). The sooner you get that class date, the sooner you can relax and deal with everything else involved in leaving Uncle Sam.

I'll start this off with saying, I understand that there is a caveat to this IF you're getting close to being within 5 years of an AGR retirement...that's a BIG factor.

I really wanted to hit on the above bolded. I've dealt with this in my Guard squadron and it's worse amongst the guys that recently came off AD, as they truly don't grasp what seniority means. As you say, it's not everything, but it's a HUGE factor. I tell these guys all the time, that if you're even considering going to the airlines, do it NOW. Every year you delay is costing you hundreds, if not thousands of seniority numbers, which is costing you LOTS of QOL and money. They can always quit later if they decide it's not for them, but they can't get those seniority numbers back. I had some buddies who were way more qualified than I, that kept delaying before finally deciding to apply. They're now 2k+ numbers junior and our QOL/pay are significantly different. My SQ/CC (not an airline guy at the time) when I was hired at DAL didn't understand me cancelling an IPUG class date to take the first available indoc class. Fast forward 5ish years and he's now at an airline...chatting over a few drinks recently, he said he now fully understands it. I've flown with a set of twins at DAL who separated from AD 3 months apart and were hired at NWA and DAL...they're now over 2000 numbers apart on the list. One spent and entire decade as a WB Capt while the other was stuck as a NB Capt. Extreme example due to a merger, but we have no idea what the future holds.

rickair7777 11-20-2021 02:08 PM

Two weeks seniority can have repercussions which last for years. Ask me how I know.

John Carr 11-20-2021 02:39 PM

I used Albie's services and couldn't have been happier with what he and his staff provide. And amazingly, he's provided TONS of good info for free on this (and other) forums.


Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 3325339)
Awesome post tnkrdrvr. I didn't come from the AD so my viewpoint is just slightly different, but I'll throw down a few minor additions to your post. There are a few posts buried in here by AlbieF15 who gave a great timeline for AD guys separating. I'll see if I can dig it up

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...11-update.html

I thought there was the original "Timing your exit" before the 2011 update but can't seem to find it.

As well as other useful ones;

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/h...e-corners.html
​​​​​​https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...into-game.html
​​​​​​https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...rt-option.html

TransWorld 11-20-2021 08:51 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3325417)
Two weeks seniority can have repercussions which last for years. Ask me how I know.

Especially when there is lots of hiring going on.

If it is during a time when only a handful each month are hired, two weeks only means part of a handful in seniority number.

PurpleToolBox 11-24-2021 06:37 PM

Many military pilots fail to prepare for the transition and/or they start way too late. If you or your family are in debt, barely getting by, a year on first year pay wipes you out. It also means you might have to go with another airline that is paying more the first year rather than your first choice. And an airline like UPS/FDX will require you to sit Reserve Days in domicile unlike some legacy carriers where you can sit reserve at home. This requires you to pay for hotels and/or crashpads.

I tell people to start working on applications, resumes and networking at least a year from the date you "think" you can get out. If you wait you will be dealing with ending a military career, transitioning and conducting a family move all at the same time. Then worrying whether an airline is going to call you .... you don't need that stress. That's a nightmare! And even if you do get called, until you get a seniority number there's no guarantees. Get the stuff done early. Get those relationships solid. You can always change your availability date on the application. HR folks are very accommodating to military and when they can separate.

crewdawg 11-25-2021 04:36 AM


Originally Posted by John Carr (Post 3325425)
I used Albie's services and couldn't have been happier with what he and his staff provide. And amazingly, he's provided TONS of good info for free on this (and other) forums.



https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...11-update.html

I thought there was the original "Timing your exit" before the 2011 update but can't seem to find it.

As well as other useful ones;

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/h...e-corners.html
​​​​​​https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...into-game.html
​​​​​​https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...rt-option.html


Awesome, thanks for finding those. These posts should be required reading for any mil guys looking to get out soon.

lancejohnson 11-26-2021 06:20 PM

Get Out At 17 Years Active Time??
 
I'm considering jumping ship at 17 years and finishing out in the reserves in order to make a run at the majors.
-Obtaining a AD retirement in the reserves is most likely not an option for me.
-I'm a helo guy with 1000hrs of FW multiengine turbine. I may or may not be able to pick up another FW flying tour to finish out my 20 but would likely fly less than 500 hours during that tour.
-I'm way over active duty for the same reasons everyone is and should have gotten out earlier.
-Financially I have a low 7 figures in the bank and have young kids with a wife who works.
My concern with staying in:
-My main concern is putting up with 3 more years of crappy active duty QOL to then transition to the airlines on the backside of the wave in 2025 and then have crappy airline QOL due to low seniority.
My concerns with getting out:
-It ends up taking me 3 years to get to a major anyway with my current low FW hours
-COVID or another event disrupts hiring again.
Interested in hearing any and all perspectives. Thank you

tnkrdrvr 11-26-2021 09:41 PM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3327580)
I'm considering jumping ship at 17 years and finishing out in the reserves in order to make a run at the majors.
-Obtaining a AD retirement in the reserves is most likely not an option for me.
-I'm a helo guy with 1000hrs of FW multiengine turbine. I may or may not be able to pick up another FW flying tour to finish out my 20 but would likely fly less than 500 hours during that tour.
-I'm way over active duty for the same reasons everyone is and should have gotten out earlier.
-Financially I have a low 7 figures in the bank and have young kids with a wife who works.
My concern with staying in:
-My main concern is putting up with 3 more years of crappy active duty QOL to then transition to the airlines on the backside of the wave in 2025 and then have crappy airline QOL due to low seniority.
My concerns with getting out:
-It ends up taking me 3 years to get to a major anyway with my current low FW hours
-COVID or another event disrupts hiring again.
Interested in hearing any and all perspectives. Thank you

Before things wound down in Afghanistan I would have recommended you join a guard or reserve tanker unit and fly your butt off (I.e. deploy a bunch) for a year to build heavy multi engine time. Unfortunately, Covid caused airline guys to flood back to their guard and reserve safety blanket and the demand for volunteers to fly has also likely dropped. If you can snag a UPT IP or PIT slot on active duty, I would do that. It sounds like you have your finances well in hand. That means that even as a junior airline guy you won’t feel the pressure to maximize compensation. Unless you really want to be an airline guy, just relax, invest your 7 figure savings wisely and you will retire very comfortably.

lancejohnson 11-27-2021 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr (Post 3327629)
Before things wound down in Afghanistan I would have recommended you join a guard or reserve tanker unit and fly your butt off (I.e. deploy a bunch) for a year to build heavy multi engine time. Unfortunately, Covid caused airline guys to flood back to their guard and reserve safety blanket and the demand for volunteers to fly has also likely dropped. If you can snag a UPT IP or PIT slot on active duty, I would do that. It sounds like you have your finances well in hand. That means that even as a junior airline guy you won’t feel the pressure to maximize compensation. Unless you really want to be an airline guy, just relax, invest your 7 figure savings wisely and you will retire very comfortably.

Thank you for the response and insight.
One last question. Would your analysis change if I had a legacy CJO upon separating at 17?

rickair7777 11-27-2021 03:16 PM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3327833)
Thank you for the response and insight.
One last question. Would your analysis change if I had a legacy CJO upon separating at 17?

Right now? Absolutely. The seniority growth potential that's available for those starting right now is unprecedented. It would be worth some pain and risk to grab a big handful of that. Primary risk being some medical problem which grounds you long-term, then you'd be doing 9-5 white collar without the AD retirement.

You can finish the last three years in the reserves easily in a non-flying unit, or try to jump through the hoops to get a flying gig. If you're not an O5 (or prior enlisted), make sure you don't have a lot of dead time before you start participating in the reserves... the rules are convoluted and it's possible that you could end up hitting 20 commissioned with only 19 qualifying years. Your retirement would then depend on a HYT waiver to finish that last year (which they have always granted in my experience, but why take a chance). I've seen O4's and even an O5 screw up the reserve retirement math/planning badly, get separated on HYT and end up driving a truck in the Mississippi National Guard to get the ball the last yard or two into the end zone (they get retirement pay for their highest rank in that case).

Also I've observed multiple helo guys in my reserve units get called by the bigs after 6-18 months at a regional (pre-pandemic).

*Caveat: random black swans such as asteroid impact, war, global pandemic, etc can always screw up the best-laid plans in this industry.

tnkrdrvr 11-27-2021 05:05 PM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3327833)
Thank you for the response and insight.
One last question. Would your analysis change if I had a legacy CJO upon separating at 17?

You have a very healthy nest egg that can effectively fund your retirement already (assuming your investment doubles at least twice between now and then). So this is really is about your income needs until then. If you can leave active duty directly to a legacy or UPS/FedEx, absolutely do so. The legacies are a small gamble right now due to unpredictable government responses to the spread of Covid-19 variants. I would highly recommend grabbing a Guard/Reserve gig as a backup and to take advantage of the pension.

PurpleToolBox 11-29-2021 10:49 AM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3327580)
I'm considering jumping ship at 17 years and finishing out in the reserves in order to make a run at the majors.
-Obtaining a AD retirement in the reserves is most likely not an option for me.
-I'm a helo guy with 1000hrs of FW multiengine turbine. I may or may not be able to pick up another FW flying tour to finish out my 20 but would likely fly less than 500 hours during that tour.
-I'm way over active duty for the same reasons everyone is and should have gotten out earlier.
-Financially I have a low 7 figures in the bank and have young kids with a wife who works.
My concern with staying in:
-My main concern is putting up with 3 more years of crappy active duty QOL to then transition to the airlines on the backside of the wave in 2025 and then have crappy airline QOL due to low seniority.
My concerns with getting out:
-It ends up taking me 3 years to get to a major anyway with my current low FW hours
-COVID or another event disrupts hiring again.
Interested in hearing any and all perspectives. Thank you

I don't see the airline hiring landscape changing significantly in the next three years. Demand will be high at many airlines. I would stay in and get the active duty retirement. That will make the transition so much easier and it will change how you pick your airlines. No matter where you go you will have enough money. You should then pick airlines based on quality of life and the location you and your wife want to retire in. My two cents.

Tini 11-29-2021 11:43 AM

I echo above. I waited until I locked in that 05 active retirement then went to airlines. Did it cost me a few years at the airlines? For sure but this ensured I am financially set (I was about same net worth as you at the time) and now my life is stress free.

As a side note, I’ve noticed when people do the “total earnings” math they don’t really account for time value of money. Like “missing” three years at wide body captain pay from age 62-65 makes a huge number. But if you are already financially secure, that isn’t going to matter. Making $400k vs $200k for three years at the end of your career actually shouldn’t move the needle much at all. $4k+ a month guaranteed starting at 20 years active duty in your 40s? That moves the needle a lot.

paulcg77 11-29-2021 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3327580)
I'm considering jumping ship at 17 years and finishing out in the reserves in order to make a run at the majors.
-Obtaining a AD retirement in the reserves is most likely not an option for me.
-I'm a helo guy with 1000hrs of FW multiengine turbine. I may or may not be able to pick up another FW flying tour to finish out my 20 but would likely fly less than 500 hours during that tour.
-I'm way over active duty for the same reasons everyone is and should have gotten out earlier.
-Financially I have a low 7 figures in the bank and have young kids with a wife who works.
My concern with staying in:
-My main concern is putting up with 3 more years of crappy active duty QOL to then transition to the airlines on the backside of the wave in 2025 and then have crappy airline QOL due to low seniority.
My concerns with getting out:
-It ends up taking me 3 years to get to a major anyway with my current low FW hours
-COVID or another event disrupts hiring again.
Interested in hearing any and all perspectives. Thank you

Oh man, I just saw this. lancejohnson as a reservist myself, I have a few words of caution for you. Please PM me if you want to talk about this in more detail - I don't want to pry publicly if you aren't willing to discuss, but entering the SELRES with 17 years TIS is brutal. I understand you think you won't make it to retirement, but have you heard of "sanctuary"? It's an actual law, Title 10 United States Code. It basically means that once you get to year 18 of active duty, you can't be forced out prior to retirement short of some type of disciplinary related event. You are within a year of this so if you can just make it one more year without RELADing, you will be protected and will be able to get an AD retirement.

My biggest regret is not staying on AD until retirement. I made a lot of super important career decisions almost a decade ago as a knee jerk reaction to a few really bad years during the recession when many were getting passed over twice, OOS for anything beyond O-3 was depressingly low, and budget cuts/sequestration were ruining the military. I had probably some of the same complaints you do right now and was very disillusioned. I even laterally transferred to another branch of the military for more opportunities. I eventually went into the SELRES as a JO and took a lot of ADOS/T10/T14 orders to build points but it just wasn't the same. It's only now in middle age that I see what a difference in QOL it is among my civilian 121 co-workers who are retired AD and collect their pension already while I have to wait until age 60, which is still quite a ways away for me.

I don't want to be a buzzkill but I normally recommend anyone over 15 years AD TIS just stay on AD until sanctuary and retirement, even if you do consecutive shore tours and have to pay for stick and rudder time at your local flight school. Spend the next 3 years using your VA Chapter 33/Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits to get more fixed wing time and tickets while you finish up so that when you do retire, you don't need to do a rotor transition program with a regional. You've spent 17 years taking it from the green phallic symbol that is the military and you're less than a year away from guaranteed check of the month club for the rest of your life starting almost immediately, not at 60 like the rest of us schmucks in the reserves. Either way, good luck brother.

lancejohnson 11-30-2021 06:37 PM

Thank you all for the responses. I truly appreciate everyones perspective. Decision doesnt have to be made for another few months so I'm going to get my apps out and see if there are any nibbles while at the same time try to negotiate a set of orders that I'm comfortable with executing. In the mean time I'll continue to pull my hair out trying to determine the best path in the epic struggle of money vs time.

rickair7777 12-01-2021 05:50 AM

"Normally" finishing off the AD retirement in the home stretch is a no-brainer. And I've counseled people to that effect over the years.

Always a no-brainer if you're particularly risk-averse.

But at this moment in time, there is a case to be made for grabbing the seniority. The risk of bailing on the AD retirement is mitigated by the fact that you can get the reserve version. Probable worst case is having to make a living to age 60 without the retirement safety net, but that's what most normal people do and ex-mil officers usually don't struggle to find and hold jobs.

A "typical" medical problem which grounds you for FAA purposes would *probably* still allow you to drill (non-flying) and finish 20 in the reserves. Even with a DQ medical issue in the reserves, there is a medical retirement or paid disability (retirement I think is assured after 18 years). I would research the reserve medical retirement rules so you know what your worst case would be.

paulcg77 12-02-2021 01:26 PM

lancejohnson if you're already tracking then disregard, but if not, highly recommend you follow the RTAG page on FB and get in touch with them personally. As you can probably see from recent posts, they even had an army helo bro go from AD straight to Frontier recently. https://www.facebook.com/rtagnation/

JTwift 12-04-2021 12:53 AM

Another consideration on top of retirement pay is that Tricare is about $60/month with some low copays vs “civilian” monthly medical payments of $500+ whatever nonsense math for FSA, catastrophic caps, etc

thats worth thousands per year, and if you lose your job, you still have medical coverage.

rickair7777 12-04-2021 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by JTwift (Post 3330816)
Another consideration on top of retirement pay is that Tricare is about $60/month with some low copays vs “civilian” monthly medical payments of $500+ whatever nonsense math for FSA, catastrophic caps, etc

thats worth thousands per year, and if you lose your job, you still have medical coverage.

Civilian employer medical in general is a poop-show, but top-tier majors are typically better than that.

Also it doesn't really matter if your monthly premium is $60 or $600 if you can pick up an OT trip and make $6K in a few days.

tnkrdrvr 12-04-2021 06:26 PM


Originally Posted by JTwift (Post 3330816)
Another consideration on top of retirement pay is that Tricare is about $60/month with some low copays vs “civilian” monthly medical payments of $500+ whatever nonsense math for FSA, catastrophic caps, etc

thats worth thousands per year, and if you lose your job, you still have medical coverage.

I won’t poopoo the value of having TriCare as an option. I will say that I deliberately opted out of TriCare so that I could take full advantage of being able to put money into an HSA. Like Rickair said, at top tier payscales you can easily afford what you want for health insurance. My company’s health insurance provides access to doctors who won’t take TriCare. After twenty years I was done with second class healthcare.

ThumbsUp 12-05-2021 05:25 PM


Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr (Post 3331101)
I won’t poopoo the value of having TriCare as an option. I will say that I deliberately opted out of TriCare so that I could take full advantage of being able to put money into an HSA. Like Rickair said, at top tier payscales you can easily afford what you want for health insurance. My company’s health insurance provides access to doctors who won’t take TriCare. After twenty years I was done with second class healthcare.

I think that’s largely based on where you live. Everyone takes Tricare where I am, so it all comes down to the cost of the plan. At $316 annually for a family of 4, it’s tough to beat.

Certainly a tough call for lancejohnson. Having a pension and essentially free healthcare has made it easy to fly only a few days a month and actually enjoy my time off rather than scrapping together a schedule between the reserves and the airline.

HELOWING 12-12-2021 07:17 AM

Does anyone know about CHAMPVA?

ExAF 12-12-2021 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by HELOWING (Post 3334637)
Does anyone know about CHAMPVA?

CHAMPVA is no more. It is Tricare. Many places still code Tricare as CHAMPVA in their coding. I see it in Tricare claims sometimes/payments.

DougForcett 01-07-2022 11:25 AM

Clean break at 10 years
 
Hello all!

There's a high likelihood that I'll be out of active duty this summer, at about 10 years of service. Has anyone here transitioned to the civilian side without joining the Guard/Reserve? I would prefer to not work 2 jobs for the next decade, but would appreciate any insight on that path. Our main family concern is healthcare. I know we'd be able to afford HC-related costs while I'm flying, but what about after retirement? Is Medicare the only option?

Thanks!

paulcg77 01-07-2022 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by DougForcett (Post 3348443)
Hello all!

There's a high likelihood that I'll be out of active duty this summer, at about 10 years of service. Has anyone here transitioned to the civilian side without joining the Guard/Reserve? I would prefer to not work 2 jobs for the next decade, but would appreciate any insight on that path. Our main family concern is healthcare. I know we'd be able to afford HC-related costs while I'm flying, but what about after retirement? Is Medicare the only option?

Thanks!

Usually you have the option to elect to keep whatever major HC provider you have in tandem with Medicare A/B at age 65. For example, my parents have Kaiser Permanente Advantage, which kicked in at 65 in tandem with Medicare (https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org...care-advantage). It acts as a relatively low cost supplement to Medicare A/B and allows you to continue to stay within the network/system of that HC provider.

I believe Tricare has something similar starting at age 65 called Tricare For Life. Have you considered a non-flying reserve job that would require less of a commitment? I only ask because Tricare Reserve Select is still one of the best deals out there (along with the optional dental coverage add-on most reservists get), especially if you have a family. I speak from experience. I've done a few shore tours as a reservist to have some consistency for my family and it really has only been 2 days of IDT drills per month and 2 weeks of ADOS in the summer, super easy. Best tour I did was with a reserve coastal riverine squadron; just showed up once a month, drove some boats for the weekend, drinks each night with the wardroom in town, and 2 weeks per summer of the same thing. These units do deploy but they usually only take 2-3 of their operational companies and every swinging dick wants to go, especially the SWO's and the sea chickens who have never slept in a tent in the desert, so it's very easy to elect to stay at home while they go to Djibouti or Bahrain. It was an awesome tour. If you're AF, I'm sure they have some great shore tours too.

Also very convenient if you do some day get furloughed to have the option to go on Title 10/long term ADOS to pay the bills, and for someone like you who has already put in 10 years, you're half way to a reserve pension that is a very nice nest egg.

rickair7777 01-07-2022 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by DougForcett (Post 3348443)
Hello all!

There's a high likelihood that I'll be out of active duty this summer, at about 10 years of service. Has anyone here transitioned to the civilian side without joining the Guard/Reserve? I would prefer to not work 2 jobs for the next decade, but would appreciate any insight on that path. Our main family concern is healthcare. I know we'd be able to afford HC-related costs while I'm flying, but what about after retirement? Is Medicare the only option?

Thanks!

Major airline retirements generally include some sort of medical, at least the top-tier majors. How will that compare to TRICARE? Hard to say since TRICARE might change over time.

Regional retirement is generally limited to a certificate of appreciation and travel benefits at a very low priority.

But ten years is a lot of retirement points to leave on the table. I would at the very least participate in the reserves in a non-flying billet... most of those billets are much lower workload especially if your career ambition is limited to making O4 so you can make 20 years. Give it a try until you know how the airline gig is shaping up, at least you'll have a fallback position while junior in case of furlough or probation issues. Maybe you'll even enjoy it. Inter-service transfers are possible too if that would help your geographic situation... everybody wants winged aviators in their inventory right now, even if you're in a non-flying billet.

I was of your mind about 25 years ago. Then I kept running into old guys who said "gee I sure wish I had stuck with the reserves and got the retirement". After hearing that enough times, I signed up and am quite glad I did now.

DougForcett 01-07-2022 03:07 PM

Paul and Rick, thank you both for the input and for helping me keep perspective. I hadn't given too much consideration to non-flying Guard/Reserve job, but that is definitely worth looking into.

Hobbit64 01-07-2022 03:31 PM


Originally Posted by DougForcett (Post 3348443)
Hello all!

There's a high likelihood that I'll be out of active duty this summer, at about 10 years of service. Has anyone here transitioned to the civilian side without joining the Guard/Reserve? I would prefer to not work 2 jobs for the next decade, but would appreciate any insight on that path. Our main family concern is healthcare. I know we'd be able to afford HC-related costs while I'm flying, but what about after retirement? Is Medicare the only option?

Thanks!

I left active duty and had a 4 year separation. I found that I missed the people and the flying after a couple years. I went back in and am very happy that I did. Guard/Reserve service definitely demands your time (and patience), but it saved my bacon a couple of times with the ups and downs of the airline industry.

3 Monetary incentives off the top of my head:
TRS is hard to beat when compared to civilian medical insurance.
Retirement can be a guaranteed decent mortgage down the road.
G.I. Bill education benefit transfer to the children.

At some point in the past when I got pretty fed up, I ran a spread sheet with expected earning + retirement + Education.
The numbers on that spread sort of pacified the irritation of my extra "Full time job with part time pay".
Of course, nothing is free.

lancejohnson 01-07-2022 05:24 PM

It seems like a large risk that staying on active to 20 alleviates is a loss of medical.
I understand that most majors have long term disability insurance to help mitigate this.

How does LTD work? What does it cost? Does it pay a living wage if you cant fly anymore?

paulcg77 01-07-2022 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3348651)
It seems like a large risk that staying on active to 20 alleviates is a loss of medical.
I understand that most majors have long term disability insurance to help mitigate this.

How does LTD work? What does it cost? Does it pay a living wage if you cant fly anymore?

Also keep in mind that LTD as a reservist isn't easy to get (I know from experience). The military's med board process for reservists is more like "guilty until proven innocent" and the write ups for the IPEB typically question whether you're lying or not, or whether it's service connected or not. Only with AD are you covered for just about any injury anywhere at any time. Snowboarding accident over the weekend? If you're AD, it's service connected. Tinnitus from 10 years of reservist flying? Good luck proving that service connection with the VA even though it's a no brainer.

Make damn sure you document EVERY injury you've had while still AD so you can file claims for it with the VA for it when you're 65. If you don't document it while on AD, it will be much harder to prove service connection with the VA later on. And until you're 65, be extra careful with what you claim with the VA while flying in the civilian 121 world - they do audit checks and if you are getting VA compensation for it and didn't declare it with the FAA you can get in trouble. A friend of mine had PTSD from some hairy stuff in Afghanistan and was at 50% VA c&p for it, didn't declare it during an FAA flight physical and got in a lot of trouble.

Beech Dude 01-08-2022 01:43 AM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3348651)
It seems like a large risk that staying on active to 20 alleviates is a loss of medical.
I understand that most majors have long term disability insurance to help mitigate this.

How does LTD work? What does it cost? Does it pay a living wage if you cant fly anymore?

First, Tricare is a good benefit, but IMHO it's not great. Nor is it THE item that should keep you on AD or grind out to 20 if you/your family/etc is burned out or doesn't know you because you're never around. You'll have solid options for care at any airline and as others have said, yes, it's not free but there are additional retiree programs + Medicare. Just thoughts to consider.

LTD where I am is that you burn your sick time, your vacation, then go to LTD; it'll be 3 months before you see that check. You'll also have disability benefits from your union, plus the company, and if you're set with VA disability rating, you'll be ok. Definitely able to pay the bills.

rickair7777 01-08-2022 07:15 AM


Originally Posted by paulcg77 (Post 3348699)

Make damn sure you document EVERY injury you've had while still AD so you can file claims for it with the VA for it when you're 65. If you don't document it while on AD, it will be much harder to prove service connection with the VA later on. And until you're 65, be extra careful with what you claim with the VA while flying in the civilian 121 world - they do audit checks and if you are getting VA compensation for it and didn't declare it with the FAA you can get in trouble. A friend of mine had PTSD from some hairy stuff in Afghanistan and was at 50% VA c&p for it, didn't declare it during an FAA flight physical and got in a lot of trouble.

CAREFUL!

The VA disability advocate groups who will help you file a claim will try to ensure you get max credit for any and every possible injury, ailment, and condition... that's *mostly* OK but there a few things which the FAA will go hard-over on... PTSD, TBI, anything substance or mental health other than marriage counseling.

It's going to be pretty hard to get an FAA 1C while getting VA disability pay for stuff like that.

And don't file with the VA and then lie to the FAA... there are ex-mil legacy airline pilots who have been recently sent to prison for doing that. Assume the FAA has visibility on all VA (and potentially mil) medical data. Databases talk to each other in the 21st century.

rickair7777 01-08-2022 07:22 AM


Originally Posted by lancejohnson (Post 3348651)
It seems like a large risk that staying on active to 20 alleviates is a loss of medical.
I understand that most majors have long term disability insurance to help mitigate this.

How does LTD work? What does it cost? Does it pay a living wage if you cant fly anymore?

Depends on the airline, details vary. Also it may or may not include medical, and may or may not allow you to work another job and keep your airline LTD.

Typically a pays a % (50-60%) of what you earned in the last year or maybe average three. If the company pays for it, that sounds good but it actually makes the disability pay taxable. If the employee pays the premium, then the disability pay is not taxed (fed).

At least one union offers LTD that you can purchase, and I think that's in addition to company LTD. Although some plans are offset by income from other plans or state SDI.

Coolbrz 01-08-2022 02:50 PM

One other point on the cash flow side…due to years of lobbying the new ndaa has guidance forcing services to provide implementation language for ACIP parity in the guard and reserves. So if you hit your gates good chance you’ll see a full tax free ACIP amount (up to ~$1k) even if you’re in a desk job.

Implementation language due sep 2022. That’s a nice chunk.

rickair7777 01-09-2022 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by Coolbrz (Post 3349169)
One other point on the cash flow side…due to years of lobbying the new ndaa has guidance forcing services to provide implementation language for ACIP parity in the guard and reserves. So if you hit your gates good chance you’ll see a full tax free ACIP amount (up to ~$1k) even if you’re in a desk job.

Implementation language due sep 2022. That’s a nice chunk.


I think USNR already gets that?

Coolbrz 01-09-2022 09:23 AM

Hmm not sure. Army (and AF to my knowledge) guard/reserve is currently only prorated. Ie 1/30 of whatever your ACIP rate is per day served. So for a drill weekend you get 4/30 of a full month rate.

New language should give you the full amount (tax free) regardless of days actually performed. Assuming you meet other requirements. Up slip every year, gates, etc.

rickair7777 01-09-2022 10:21 AM


Originally Posted by Coolbrz (Post 3349532)
Hmm not sure. Army (and AF to my knowledge) guard/reserve is currently only prorated. Ie 1/30 of whatever your ACIP rate is per day served. So for a drill weekend you get 4/30 of a full month rate.

New language should give you the full amount (tax free) regardless of days actually performed. Assuming you meet other requirements. Up slip every year, gates, etc.

Pretty sure USNR is pro-rated.

Duffman 01-09-2022 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3348914)
CAREFUL!

The VA disability advocate groups who will help you file a claim will try to ensure you get max credit for any and every possible injury, ailment, and condition... that's *mostly* OK but there a few things which the FAA will go hard-over on... PTSD, TBI, anything substance or mental health other than marriage counseling.

It's going to be pretty hard to get an FAA 1C while getting VA disability pay for stuff like that.

And don't file with the VA and then lie to the FAA... there are ex-mil legacy airline pilots who have been recently sent to prison for doing that. Assume the FAA has visibility on all VA (and potentially mil) medical data. Databases talk to each other in the 21st century.

I have a friend who was in Fallujah and got diagnosed with PTSD. He went through some insane **** and any normal person would've responded the same way, but he worked through his issues the right way, which, unfortunately, left a paper trail. I passed along Rick's advice, he was upfront about his PTSD to the FAA, and he had to jump through rings of fire to prove he's completely recovered, but he was able to get his Class 1 medical. He's working on his 1500 hours now.

rickair7777 01-09-2022 11:46 AM


Originally Posted by Duffman (Post 3349577)
I have a friend who was in Fallujah and got diagnosed with PTSD. He went through some insane **** and any normal person would've responded the same way, but he worked through his issues the right way, which, unfortunately, left a paper trail. I passed along Rick's advice, he was upfront about his PTSD to the FAA, and he had to jump through rings of fire to prove he's completely recovered, but he was able to get his Class 1 medical. He's working on his 1500 hours now.


If it happened, you cannot hide that. I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to get a VA rating for anything of that nature if you want to fly.

For the VA, you have to play up the condition.

For the FAA, you have to play it down.

You can't do both (and stay out of prison).


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