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Never give an order you lack…

Old 07-09-2022, 10:44 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
Why is this a dumb order, because you believe the vaccines don't work?

If they do work, then they're stopping a highly contagious virus that has a massive impact on operational readiness. Who cares about the death rate, I wouldn't want to deal with a cruiser or AOC where half the crew is dragging ass and making mistakes left and right because they all have COVID. Also, I was at an exercise in early 2020 where half the participants came down with 'a really bad flu' and some ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. They didn't die, but it crippled our ability to conduct the exercise and fight a very real-world scenario. Fast-forward a few years later and with mitigation, there were zero negative effects from COVID at a very similar exercise. If some special snowflake believes the vaccine is really nanobots that share their thoughts with the govt (more than their Facebook page does already), then they can do a different job where other people don't have to rely on them. They're a liability not an asset. They catch the virus easier, they're sick longer, and spread it to more people, including vaccinated people, who are generally only sick for a day or two, but that still really screws up operations (as I saw at my most recent TDY). You can't do most of these jobs by just showing up, mistakes matter and people with COVID suck at their jobs for a few days. It's 100% in the military's best interest to hold a hard line on this, and that's all aside from the obvious problem that soldiers are refusing to follow a direct order with known consequences. The first thing you learn in the military is that you are expendable and replaceable, so if less than 0.5% of the military wants to self-eliminate, let 'em. The VAST MAJORITY of the military got vaccinated, so now we're going to start making exceptions to a small, vocal, whiny minority? Yeah, **** that.
No. I believe vaccinations DO work, but there was ample epidemiological evidence from our NATO allies Spain and Italy who got hit early in the pandemic that this was not a disease with high mortality or morbidity in military personnel, both because of their age and because of their generally superior physical fitness compared to the civilian population. In the early part of the epidemic both Italy and Spain were hit hard - back when NO ONE was immunized. Even so, neither country’s military had the “massive effect on operational readiness” that you claim this order was designed to prevent. And seriously, if the US military actually BELIEVED that, why would they have extended the deadline for vaccination for these troops to JUNE 2022, by which time the overwhelming majority of those not getting immunized would have ALREADY HAD COVID.

No, this qualifies as a STUPID order, not an illegal one. But it was still an unforced error.
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Old 07-09-2022, 11:21 AM
  #22  
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Never disobey a lawful order unless you're willing to face unemployment, prison, or a firing squad.
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Old 07-09-2022, 11:22 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Ohlsan View Post
There are FDA approved vaccines, they just are not being manufactured currently, Pfizer and Moderna are trying to exhaust their supply of EUA vaccines prior to making the FDA approved version. The military is not allowed to relabel the EUA version even though some sources say they are the same vaccine.

Possibly 400,000 trips not fully vaccinated: (from MSN, sorry I can’t seem to find the whistle blower report) https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ash/ar-AAPIkzu

We know for sure it’s at least 60k from the guard, the guard is only about 440,000 strong. So roughly 14%
https://youtu.be/r4zIHVwExcQ
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:14 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by DropTank View Post
Can't have people who don't follow orders in the military.

Good riddance
Yeah ... remember when it was against orders to have homosexual contact with your fellow service members? I bet you followed that order too (if you were old enough). The people with your belief system is the reason why the US military is in a downward spiral.
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Old 07-09-2022, 04:43 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by DropTank View Post
Can't have people who don't follow orders in the military.

Good riddance
you seem to forget that these are real people with families, who honestly feel like this order is against the oath they swore to when they joined the military. Some of these people have deployed numerous times for the flag and are now being thrown to the side. It is a complete disgrace to the brotherhood that the military use to be.
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Old 07-09-2022, 10:22 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Ohlsan View Post
you seem to forget that these are real people with families, who honestly feel like this order is against the oath they swore to when they joined the military. Some of these people have deployed numerous times for the flag and are now being thrown to the side. It is a complete disgrace to the brotherhood that the military use to be.
When I joined the military, it was clear that you were required to follow orders. It doesn't matter how cool you are, how many medals you have, how many times you have deployed, who is the commander in chief, you have to follow orders. It's what you agreed to do when you signed up.
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Old 07-09-2022, 11:14 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
When I joined the military, it was clear that you were required to follow orders. It doesn't matter how cool you are, how many medals you have, how many times you have deployed, who is the commander in chief, you have to follow orders. It's what you agreed to do when you signed up.
Correct. Even dumb orders…which this one clearly is…
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:56 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
When I joined the military, it was clear that you were required to follow orders. It doesn't matter how cool you are, how many medals you have, how many times you have deployed, who is the commander in chief, you have to follow orders. It's what you agreed to do when you signed up.
We are on the same page when it comes to legal orders, the issue is, that the gray area around this order makes it hard to determine if it is legal or not. There are so many issues with this order, even most general officers are deferring to the courts. The more you dig into the actual order the more impossible it is to legally complete, and the more shady the whole process becomes.
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Old 07-14-2022, 06:33 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox View Post
Yeah ... remember when it was against orders to have homosexual contact with your fellow service members? I bet you followed that order too (if you were old enough). The people with your belief system is the reason why the US military is in a downward spiral.
Originally Posted by Ohlsan View Post
you seem to forget that these are real people with families, who honestly feel like this order is against the oath they swore to when they joined the military. Some of these people have deployed numerous times for the flag and are now being thrown to the side. It is a complete disgrace to the brotherhood that the military use to be.
You're in the military.

Follow your orders or face insubordination and court-martial.

Don't like it? Don't join the military

Quit whining.
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Old 07-15-2022, 08:41 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DropTank View Post
You're in the military.

Follow your orders or face insubordination and court-martial.

Don't like it? Don't join the military

Quit whining.

The issue is not if people should follow orders as the thread title demonstrates, it’s the cost of giving STUPID orders. The order given with a deadline of June 2022 qualifies as a STUPID order, because by this time pretty much all the susceptibles have already HAD COVID-19 and are now as immune as anybody else, regardless of immunization status and the immunizations being given - even as boosters - are providing at best a four week period of immunity to reinfection against current variants. Yet the cost to the military is still substantial at a time the future of the all-volunteer force is truly in question:




The issue isn’t whether or not the military should follow orders - they should - even stupid ones. The issue is that stupid orders ought not to be given to begin with.
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