Excargodog

Which is why I’m saying it was a STUPID order. It certainly would have been more defensible if they had even made the deadline within 3-6 months of initial vaccine availability in the military. At that point you might have convinced the public (and the judiciary) that the juice really WAS worth the squeeze, but now? Now that more contagious variants are damn near everywhere, virtually nobody in the military is getting much more than the sniffles from getting it, and the people who you are separating have likely already had COVID one or more times? Plus inconsistencies (and obvious pencil-whipped denials of religious exemptions) actually DO pi$$ off the judiciary, most of whom have never served and don’t understand how over ruling an order - even a stupid order - can potentially hurt military effectiveness in the future?

And if this truly turns into a partisan political issue - and it well might - that REALLY puts the military in a bind.

But the order was given and - stupid or not - there is no walking it back without paying a price. Or paying the price for NOT walking it back.
Either way, the US military loses. And looks foolish.

fasteddie800

You obviously have very strong opinions on the subject.

Can you share what your experience in the military is?

rickair7777

That is a legal technicality. Absent physical differences in the contents of the bottle, DoD can do it's own thing.

It is unusual how they are dealing with it, but I can tell you why and it has nothing to do with labels on bottles...

DoD needs to retain their high ground on mandatory vaccination (and other orders which potentially hazard service members).

If they went Article 15/CM and bad paper for thousands of members there would be too much political blowback and congress might just intervene with unpredictable consequences for future good order and discipline. Policy ADSEP keeps them in control.

Excargodog

Not just that, court martial is no slam dunk. I’ve been on three of them and - for my sins - was even the senior board member on one. I seemed to be the most conviction-prone member on every board. It wasn’t that anyone had any particular doubt about the culpability of the defendants in any of the cases, they simply wanted to find them guilty of the “lesser included charges” instead of what they really did.

One case involved a Squadron Section Commander dating one of his directly supervised enlisted troops while his wife was finishing up her degree program at his last base - then working a behind the scenes deal with AFMPC to ship the enlisted troop off to a Korea remote before his wife finished her program and showed up. Almost half of the board wanted to go with only a lesser included charge that would have allowed the officer to avoid discharge. Go figure.

This ain’t your Daddy’s military.

fasteddie800

I don't know if it's simply a "legal technicality." I've seen compelling arguments that the drugs produced under the EUA are not equivalent to the FDA approved ones.

Regardless though, that's in the weeds as this point. Enough digital ink spilled on that topic over the past couple years.

I'm more interested in the overall effect on military readiness. The discharges for refusing the Covid vax are one thing, but I wonder if we're starting to see the beginning of a big change in US military readiness.

The US had the draft between 1940 and 1973, alongside an option for people to sign up voluntarily. In 1973, we transitioned to an all-volunteer force.

For the most part, from 1973 through the 1990s, military service was a pretty decent deal. Sign up, train, get a skill, make a decision to stay in or get out. If you got out, you could use your GI Bill, VA loan, and other benefits to get a jump start on life. If you stayed in, you had a chance for a decent career and good retirement. Ultimately, not a real big chance of getting shot at, or getting deployed for a long period of time. Even through the 90s, the occasional deployments to the Middle East weren't too bad.

After 9/11, we went all-in on these endless nation-building exercises. Some people came home in boxes. Other people came home physically or mentally maimed. Lots of people with both. Add to that, while the US military has always put on a great PR campaign with the American people, the advent of social media really gives an opportunity for people to see beyond "An Army of One, Aim High, etc." The latest kerfuffle over vaccine mandate is just another black eye on the military.

For all the digs at millennials/Gen Z, etc, those 18-year olds aren't dummies. They'll do a quick google search before signing on the dotted line with their recruiter. Or maybe they'll just think back to watching our chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, and decide that maybe community college is a better choice.

If you were an 18-year old today, and you were thinking about serving, would you sign up in today's military?

It'll be interesting to see how the military responds to the more challenging recruiting environment over the next five years.

Hobbit64

Nope

nope,nope, nope

Everything in our society has been politicized. The military (at least down at the troop level) was somewhat shielded during my time. Not anymore. Very sad.
Heck, even nascar (all they do is drive fast and turn left) has been pulled into our society’s need to find something, anything to scrap about.

Too many pitfalls in todays world. An 18 y/o kid standing guard, forced into split second life and death decisions that may or may not be backed up depending on however the political winds are blowing for the select few in DC who’ve never laid anything on the line… and never will

not no, but hell no

Excargodog

And the polarization continues…

tnkrdrvr

I actually see this measure as a good thing and I’m definitely not a D voter.

hopp

Military law is pretty much the same in all western worlds. Jawhol? Shoot those civilian children. Jawhol!

A lawful order must be lawful. So, were those soldiers who took drugs under a CIA program run by Dr. Sidney Gotlieb ( grandfather of Pfizer board member and former FDA commissioner Scott Gotlieb).were those lawful orders? At the time it was believed to be so..not now, but defenders of the program claim it was “voluntary “. Do it or take a discharge.

Historical note. I took the swine flu vaccine in 1976, the day before I left on 2 weeks leave from the Air Force. Don’t remember if it was an order or suggested. At the time I didn’t care, as I was used to mandatory vaccine requirements for MAC crew members who traveled all continents. Next night I was in an Army Hospital. Thought I might die. That gave me a whole new outlook on vaccines.

I have 2 sons in uniform. One had 13 years when the order was given. Really tough choice for him.

There needs to be clear limits on peace time military authority. It is too vague.

rickair7777

Would take some of the teeth out of good order and discipline.

The mil would react by processing more folks for OTH and DD. And out of necessity imposing more stringent punishment... brig time instead of a months pay, etc.