Excargodog

This is perhaps the worst of all outcomes. A requirement to get an immunization for a disease that posed a trivial risk to most military personnel despite the fact that the vaccine turned out to neither prevent getting nor spreading the illness now threatens to establish a precedent that will adversely effect the ability of the military to mandate immunizations against diseases that truly are a threat to both troop health and mission accomplishment. Yet clearly, at this point anybody actually susceptible to COVID has almost certainly had it if not vaccinated, and is likely at no more risk than anyone else. Some arguments are best finessed away rather than fought over.



https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...tagon-00072715

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/06/u...ense-bill.html

Myfingershurt

Am i reading this wrong or does the article not say that Congress is overturning the vaccine mandate? Isn’t that a good thing?

rickair7777

They had very good reason for the mandate to begin with...

1. The vaccine worked well against covid 1.0.
2. The mil was not really concerned with SM health. Due to close living/working conditions for many SM's they were concerned that covid would spread like wildfire, necessitating that training be curtailed and bases locked down to avoid the perception that the military was recklessly endangering the public. Dependents, GS civilians, and the general public which SM's might come in contact with did not have a trivially low risk of health consequences.

That's the beginning and end of it.

Given variants and broad public exposure to covid it does not really appear necessary at this point, but I'm sure the administration doesn't want to let it go that easily... the maskers are still out there, and they vote.

Realpolitik: I'd guess the WH is happy that the congress "forced" them to repeal the mandate, it solves some of their recruiting/retention issues and they can blame the GOP.

Excargodog

The bad thing is the precedent. Congress should not be making these decisions. Although in fairness, kicking two divisions worth of troops out for not getting their COVID immunization was pretty stupid in its own right - especially since most had already gained immunity through infection and recovery. . Sensible people on either side would have never let it get to this point.



With over a half million KNOWN cases the military has lost less than 100 people. And yeah, everyone is a tragedy but That many are lost in major exercises. And in a single year (the 96 deaths are cumulative since the pandemic began) the military loses about 500 people annually to suicide.

Myfingershurt

This specific bill and this specific mandate are only applied to Covid, correct? Do congressional bills take the same kind of precedent as judicial rulings? It seems like the military can still sanction mandates against future bugs but they’ll just need a little more evidence of the necessity for said vaccines.

rickair7777

No, laws are specific and *should* be interpreted literally by the courts.

If it says "vaccine", it means all vaccines. If it says "XYZ vaccine", it only means that one.

new guy

You're speaking WELL out of turn. Because this statement clearly wasn't made by someone active duty during corona.

I'll not even gonna touch #1.

But on #2, training was cancelled across the globe, either by us or our partners overseas due to fear. Regardless of outbreak status. Some units had 2 people gt sick, and it was the end of days. Some had entire companies get sick and no one cared. Also, based on seeing it happen, purple



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rickair7777

That was the info they had at the time, no need to rehash the merits in this forum.

They wanted to get away from canx and lockdowns asap. The hope was that the vax would work for that.

This I got directly from flag officers.

new guy

I won't argue what generals told you if you won't argue what they actually enacted at all subordinate levels. I speak as someone who was there, in the rooms with all the full birds carrying out what they said they were told from those flag officers.

And at the battalions seeing first hand how horrible it went. Soldiers were getting it left and right and the only thing that happened was it looked bad, but no death, nothing more than extended vacations for our guys. The PR was the only problem the military had.

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Excargodog

I wasn’t talking in terms of court precedent, I was talking about the precedent of Congress over ruling commanders on operational decisions. Granted, the US military is financially controlled by and answerable to Congress, but this can only be interpreted as a slap down on the military decision making. Had reasonable people worked together, it would have never come to this.

Note, I have NEVER been antivaxxer and I believe the vaccine saved many lives - just not young military lives. The demographics demonstrate that. But for anyone in a high risk group, your first exposure OUGHT to be by vaccination. And prior coronavirus vaccines (albeit mostly veterinary) also had very brief effective periods, just as our immunity to the effects of the four other common human coronavirus quickly wanes. But most of the risk is in that initial exposure and for the active duty age group the risk was never great.

The decision to kick people out of the military for refusing vaccinations long after they had been exposed to, caught, and recovered from COVID could not be medically justified but was - I believe - done simply to make the point that an order is an order and must be obeyed. To the majority of Congress WHO HAVE NEVER SERVED that seemed at best churlish and at worst stupid and cruel. That ought not to be the way the military wants themselves regarded by the people who provide them their budget and write the UCMJ.