COVID vaccine mandate…
 

This is perhaps the worst of all outcomes. A requirement to get an immunization for a disease that posed a trivial risk to most military personnel despite the fact that the vaccine turned out to neither prevent getting nor spreading the illness now threatens to establish a precedent that will adversely effect the ability of the military to mandate immunizations against diseases that truly are a threat to both troop health and mission accomplishment. Yet clearly, at this point anybody actually susceptible to COVID has almost certainly had it if not vaccinated, and is likely at no more risk than anyone else. Some arguments are best finessed away rather than fought over.



https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...tagon-00072715

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/06/u...ense-bill.html

Am i reading this wrong or does the article not say that Congress is overturning the vaccine mandate? Isn’t that a good thing?

They had very good reason for the mandate to begin with...

1. The vaccine worked well against covid 1.0.
2. The mil was not really concerned with SM health. Due to close living/working conditions for many SM's they were concerned that covid would spread like wildfire, necessitating that training be curtailed and bases locked down to avoid the perception that the military was recklessly endangering the public. Dependents, GS civilians, and the general public which SM's might come in contact with did not have a trivially low risk of health consequences.

That's the beginning and end of it.

Given variants and broad public exposure to covid it does not really appear necessary at this point, but I'm sure the administration doesn't want to let it go that easily... the maskers are still out there, and they vote.

Realpolitik: I'd guess the WH is happy that the congress "forced" them to repeal the mandate, it solves some of their recruiting/retention issues and they can blame the GOP.

The bad thing is the precedent. Congress should not be making these decisions. Although in fairness, kicking two divisions worth of troops out for not getting their COVID immunization was pretty stupid in its own right - especially since most had already gained immunity through infection and recovery. . Sensible people on either side would have never let it get to this point.

https://i.ibb.co/FhCvTj2/6404-AC2-A-...FF9697-AA2.jpg

With over a half million KNOWN cases the military has lost less than 100 people. And yeah, everyone is a tragedy but That many are lost in major exercises. And in a single year (the 96 deaths are cumulative since the pandemic began) the military loses about 500 people annually to suicide.

This specific bill and this specific mandate are only applied to Covid, correct? Do congressional bills take the same kind of precedent as judicial rulings? It seems like the military can still sanction mandates against future bugs but they’ll just need a little more evidence of the necessity for said vaccines.

No, laws are specific and *should* be interpreted literally by the courts.

If it says "vaccine", it means all vaccines. If it says "XYZ vaccine", it only means that one.

You're speaking WELL out of turn. Because this statement clearly wasn't made by someone active duty during corona.

I'll not even gonna touch #1.

But on #2, training was cancelled across the globe, either by us or our partners overseas due to fear. Regardless of outbreak status. Some units had 2 people gt sick, and it was the end of days. Some had entire companies get sick and no one cared. Also, based on seeing it happen, purple



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That was the info they had at the time, no need to rehash the merits in this forum.

They wanted to get away from canx and lockdowns asap. The hope was that the vax would work for that.

This I got directly from flag officers.

I won't argue what generals told you if you won't argue what they actually enacted at all subordinate levels. I speak as someone who was there, in the rooms with all the full birds carrying out what they said they were told from those flag officers.

And at the battalions seeing first hand how horrible it went. Soldiers were getting it left and right and the only thing that happened was it looked bad, but no death, nothing more than extended vacations for our guys. The PR was the only problem the military had.

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I wasn’t talking in terms of court precedent, I was talking about the precedent of Congress over ruling commanders on operational decisions. Granted, the US military is financially controlled by and answerable to Congress, but this can only be interpreted as a slap down on the military decision making. Had reasonable people worked together, it would have never come to this.

Note, I have NEVER been antivaxxer and I believe the vaccine saved many lives - just not young military lives. The demographics demonstrate that. But for anyone in a high risk group, your first exposure OUGHT to be by vaccination. And prior coronavirus vaccines (albeit mostly veterinary) also had very brief effective periods, just as our immunity to the effects of the four other common human coronavirus quickly wanes. But most of the risk is in that initial exposure and for the active duty age group the risk was never great.

The decision to kick people out of the military for refusing vaccinations long after they had been exposed to, caught, and recovered from COVID could not be medically justified but was - I believe - done simply to make the point that an order is an order and must be obeyed. To the majority of Congress WHO HAVE NEVER SERVED that seemed at best churlish and at worst stupid and cruel. That ought not to be the way the military wants themselves regarded by the people who provide them their budget and write the UCMJ.

The short duration of immunity after coronavirus immunization was well known in the veterinary and medical communities even before COVID. It should not have surprised anyone. The fact that the current COVID vaccine had only brief effectiveness against infection and contagiousness was known long before people started getting discharged:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...409-1/fulltext

When your policy becomes counterproductive you either change your policy or you lose your credibility. This rebuke from Congress demonstrates that those flag officers have lost credibility with Congress. That was an avoidable outcome.

Well yeah, that's what I said. It came down to PR, the leadership didn't want their hands tied by covid kneejerk and politics. Vaccine was the obvious way out. Mission accomplished.

That's why they had boosters, if needed. The policy was legit probably until spring 2022 when it became obvious where the variants were headed.

And stop blaming the mil leadership, you know where this came from.

when the military leadership stops being complicit with bad decisions I will. Sometimes you need to do the right thing for the troops you have under you, even if it costs you a promotion in the future. Careerists are not the guys I want giving orders to troops in a war. You want leaders who do what’s right, not professional brown nosers.

There was a time when generals retired in protest.

Glad I am out and done with people doing whatever it takes to keep their stars

There was a time when generals retired in protest.

Glad I am out and done with people doing whatever it takes to keep their stars

Well I have some bad news for you…

They’re all brown nosers


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Nobody knew what was right or wrong, they took their best swag.

There are issues worth resigning over, this isn't one of them IMO. I don't see why the leadership should fall on their swords because some folks disobeyed lawful general orders. It worked out well for everyone, those who chose not to obey orders were let off the hook, no harm, no foul. They'll probably end up re-instated eventually.

And stuck with it long after it was apparent their best swag was incorrect.

You don’t have to resign to tell your boss that their lawful general order is the WRONG lawful general order, nor do you do your commander or your service any great favor by not giving them that feedback when clearly warranted.


Which actually DOES undermine the chain of command and - worse - the troops confidence in the chain of command. That was both an undesirable and an avoidable outcome.

I don't think it was the wrong general order at the time. You could argue they may not have needed it sometime into 2022 but the system is slow to react and tends to be conservative. Not to mention the CIC gets a vote. At that point everybody had the vaccine anyway.

I agree, I was being sarcastic. They probably would have just hammered the folks who refused, but politics. What started out as the trump vaccine (banned by gavin newsom) quickly did a 180, got re-invented as biden's poison, and then pols saved the troops from it. Bad precedent all around.

24 years of service.

Severe reaction to Anthrax vax in 2004. On multiple SIs for after effects. Myocarditis, anong other cardiac issues.

Had COVID early on.

Advised by my Cardiologist, Oncologist, Pulmonogist, Flight Surgeon (all Navy) and AME (civilian, retired USAF FS) to not get covid vax.

Waiver turned in on time.

Denied. By an admin type who has never seen me. 700+ waivers at the NOSC (reseve center) zero approved.

Threatened with ADSEP and inegibilty for retirement. (Over 24 years then). Told them I would fight the ADSEP.

Then Threatened with a Court Martial.

Gave the NOSC my attorney's info and said to coordinate it with him.

Was having my shoulder reconstructed.

They slammed my retirement through and I was retired while I was in the hospital having surgery.

I find out I've been retired when I go to the hospital for follow up and don't have insurance (was on TAMP post deployment)

Year later, billing is still AFU

Got a call last month asking if I'd come back.

I think I may have told the RESFOR guy to go fornicate with a hairy midget stripper.

They lost their effing minds with covid.



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The second shoe drops…
 

Senators demanding reinstatement of discharged troops…

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/time...accine-mandate

An excerpt:

Screw them. Im not going back.



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Yep. But they shootcanned a lot of us already over COVID Vax.

Oh well, my reserve center tried to threaten me with a CM, even though I had 4 Navy Docs going "This dude doesn't get it, ever"

I also saw them try to force a squadronmate who was undergoing chemotherapy get it, and another who was pregnant with a high risk pregnancy take it.

We all quit.

This stuff makes me sick. I buckled and got the JJ vax as I was being threatened with a dishonorable... which obviously would ruin my career aspects.
But I regret my decision.

Yeah.. I was over 24 years WITH AN APPROVED RETIREMENT 3 days past the deadline.. No waiver for 3 days then a threat of CM.

Ironically, my JAG basically went there was zero for them to convict me on as I had followed all procedures for a waiver, and their denial was in opposition to four MDs, and was denied by a MSC non MD who had never even seen me or looked at my record, , and if they had pushed the CM, I would actually get into sanctuary.. I think them noticing that is why I found out I was retired a week after I was retired, when I went to go back into the hospital for a follow up on my shoulder surgery. (I apparently was retired the day of my surgery, and billing hilarity ensued)

This would be your luck. You’ll somehow end up pressed back onto the active service rolls.

If they think I was an ******* the time I got recalled from the IRR, they ain't seen nothing yet.

Absolutely false. The mandate was put in place in Aug 2021…well after lockdowns had happen. Covid had spread, and we knew it didn’t effect young people. If your flag officer friends supported the mandate, please tell them to go choke themselves for us.

Yep, gotta agree with PRS Guitars on this one:


https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/polit...ate/index.html

We knew in Jan 2021 that immunization - while protective from severe disease - did not effectively keep people from either getting or spreading COVID.

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...e-what-to-know

And even before that, we knew that the military age cohort had few serious cases and even fewer deaths. We knew that back when Spain and Italy were having their initial widespread epidemics.

https://i.ibb.co/3dP3SxH/36-A8-ACD7-...4-E0805104.jpg


https://www.epicentro.iss.it/en/coro...tober_2021.pdf


Even before the START of the mandate it was clear this was not a militarily significant illness. By the deadline for active duty troops to get it 3-6 months later it was obvious from DODs own statistics that this was the case.

https://www.defense.gov/Spotlights/C...-DOD-Response/

You're talking out of your arse. In Aug 2021 the delta variant was just getting started, and the vaccines worked fine for version 1.0 for at least the timeline which they had experience with.

And the vaccines still largely prevented severe covid even with delta. Omicron? Hard to say how much it matters since omicron isn't severe by comparison. But the wheels turn slowly, and here we are with the mandate repealed (by politics, not policy).

My friends are senior enough to know what's going on, but not senior enough to personally drive big-navy or DoD policy. I think they were all like my... ambivalent and resigned, just another shot among many over decades in the mil.