Seals
 

I just want to know if there are any seals out there who are commercial pilots. I'm 25, and am an E-5 in the Army and since I was a kid wanted to be a seal, and want to make this a reality. I'm thinking of taking some time and try to be one. After I transfer for the spring semester, am wanting to get into Navy ROTC and select the special warfare option. I'd be willing to be enlisted. Any thoughts?

There are a few that I know. Plenty of frogs get pilot licenses, but their military skills are so marketable right now that flying doesn't make economic sense for most.

If you REALLY want to do this...from you position (age, prior mil, no degree) I would STRONGLY recommend that you enlist in the navy direct-entry SEAL program. Get in shape first, then do it immediately.

- You're getting old...you're not too old, but you will need as much physical resilience as you can bring.

- Officer slots out of any source (ROTC, USNA, OCS) are extremely competetive. Also you're held to a somewhat higher standard in BUDS.

- Once you are on the teams, you can basically go get a degree at your convenience and then they will happily commission you if you want. This way you can have as many platoon tours as you can stand, and then upgrade to officer...after which you'll get maybe two more platoons and then it's off to desk jobs.

Most of the info you need is here:

http://www.seal.navy.mil/

I'd suggest that you pick one: Pilot or SEAL and go for it.

To answer your question, I've met the rare pilot that was a SEAL but flying really doesn't fit into the job description on active duty. As Rick mentioned, if this is something you want - do it now.

http://www.seal.navy.mil/seal/osvetoverview.aspx

I don't want to be a naysayer but it deserves saying: make sure you want to be in the Navy, not just a SEAL. An awful lot of people don't make it through BUDS and if you don't....be prepared to swab decks. You can be the badest ass of them all, but if your knees/shins/whatever blow up, you're still in the Navy. You can be physically qualifed to remain in the Navy without being BUDS qualified. Plan A is great, but make sure there's a plan B you can live with.

Man I feel sorry for the Officers in BUDS. They expect perfection out of every single person in BUDS, they expect more than perfection out of the Officers. From what I've seen of it and the SEALs that I've operated with, BUDS is absolute hell on Earth. You have my utmost respect for even attempting such insanity!

P.S - I don't know your disposition and I'm not 100% on the details but see if it is possible for you to get a Corpsman guaranteed SEAL contract. My old corpsman was a SEAL contract enlistee but I don't know exactly how it works. The reason I say this is that if you fail out of BUDS (And realize now that failing is a probability!) you will still be able to go 'Green side' and operate with the good ole' USMC. The SEALs we ain't, but operating with us (And the opportunity to get on our Recon teams) will probably beat the hell out of being at the whim of the Navy and ending up behind a desk.

***DISCLAIMER*** Not that being behind a desk is a bad thing or makes your service any less important than anyone else in the military but if you are wanting to be a SEAL you are probably of the midset that you want to shoot things, blow stuff up, see some combat, and generally partake in other non-sane activities.

True statement. If you enlist as a corpsman, then you have some other options if BUDS doesn't work out.

But the Special Operations Corpsman training program is a whole nother extreme exercise. It is actually the Army's program for the SF medics, it is at least 18 months long IIRC. It is all-encompassing, and you learn to deal with combat injuries by repairing goats which have been shot (I can't remember if they make you shoot your own goats). Depending on what the current philosophy is over at WARCOM they may have you do the special medical training before BUDS, or maybe after. I think it might be after BUDS these days. Anyway it take still more time out of your life for training before you can get on a platoon.

with respect to the question and being about SEALS. I was a hard hat diver and personally know three of us as airline pilots. Also I want to ask about the corpsman comment. I know teams from Hawaii, and while operating in Korea and the PI.

The two corpsman I knew regarding this conversation, they were both Dive Med Techs. One was with SDV's and wore cammies but wore his Med tech dive pin.
What is the real progression for them, I never was concerned then.

I heard there is one at Delta.

this one is just for the frogs out there to laugh about. We had a corpsman/frog turn up at Polaris point Guam as our new dive corpsman. He wore the Trident and had all the geedunk from survival training and knew all about BUDS, etc.

Well one day in Guam the Sam Houston pulled in and my Med tech buddy with the SDV team says, " Hey I know that guy, he dropped out of BUDS back whenever, he's not a frog."
Turns out he dropped out of BUDS, rang the bell. Rigged his service record to show that he was NEC 8*** whatever and then had an assignment at 29 Palms with some Marine battalion, then was assigned to us. this true med tech questioned him, the bogus guy had just put on E6. The busted him down to E4 took away his Med tech NEC and fake Frog NEC.

crazy

please remember TWA in Lebonan. PO2 Stethem, Hoo ya Deep sea.

I always did see a lot of seamen(and women) playing the device and awards shuffle. There was a female corpsman at the 29 Palms base hospital that I swear had on a different device every time I went to see one of my reformed (Green to Blue side) corpsman buddies... From what I hear the Blue side can be one of the most frustrating areas of the military if you are a former Green side corpsman.

It pays to be a winner.

The only easy day...............was yesterday.:cool:

USAF Special Operations is where you want to be. Don't waste time on the Navy. The AF is a better service all around.


AIM HIGH!!!

Is that what the glossy recruiting brochures told you?

Dive Med Tech is a corpsman who goes to Panama City for dive training (they have a special program which emphasizes dive medicine). These guys get farmed out to various diving activities, and can perform basic diving tasks, although their purpose in life is dive medicine, chambers, etc.

DMT's can be found at any diving activity including seal teams/SDV/VSW, etc, but they are nor SEAL operators. The seal operator corpsmen do both BUDS and the Army SF Med Tech course. They are SEALs first, and are there mainly to kill people...combat and ISR is their primary job.

Any corpsman who is assigned to the marines will attend a fairly short course in ground-pounder skills and get the 8404 NEC. This is good for any non-diving marine unit. A corpsmen who goes to marine diving activities (force recon) will also need to attend all of the normal recon schools, including the combat diver course, and then he will go to special dive med tech course just for marine diving corpsmen.

The army has few diving activities...my guess is that they don't have enough to support a career path for DMT's, so they borrow them from the navy.

If you really like going to schools, the corpsman rate might be for you.

Nope...Just experience in the military. Been stationed on a Army base , a Navy base, and deployed with Marines. 4 years w/ Army on Wiesbaden Air Base. 2 years w/ Navy in Tokyo Bay area, and a 120 day deployment with the Marines (Horn Of Africa).

USAF
Marines
Navy
Army

Your military experience?

Thanks,
LAFF

I was visiting my dad over the summer, hanging around the marina, and this d-bag hat a seal hat and a t-shirt. My ol' man (a former squid) asked him what team he was on. The d-bag told him that he wasn't on any team, and he was wearing it because his "friend was a seal and wanted to show appreciation for " him. That upset the ol' man and I 'cause the guy didn't earn the right to wear it. It's like this CFI @ my school, he has the high and tight haricut, wears all these fighter squadron t-shirts, the olive drab flight jacket (with patches) but isn't going into the military him self; even though he thinks that being in the Civil Air Patrol is military enough.

Sure, if you're a girl :) Go Navy, not just a job but a job on a boat.

Being in the AF I'm somewhat biased towards AF SOF as well. In my younger and dumber days I considered Navy service as well, but the old 'what will I do if plan A doesn't work' reared it's head and pushed me in directions I've never regretted. But to each his own.

I've met far more people who wanted to be Special Ops than who ever were Special Ops. Some are posers who just want the cool tshirt but can't do the gut check to earn it. Some are very talented people whose bodies just couldn't take it, but they went on to do other great things. I've spent time at Lackland and seen just what PJ/CCT indoc does to people's shins/knees. Regardless of heart, the body just doesn't always work. And that is why my advice was, make sure you want to be in the Navy as well as a SEAL, you never know what could happen.

LAFF I'm just curious, you've served in all four branchs, or served with all four? I've been in two, I've meet a few folks who've been in 3, but never actually known anyone to hit all four.

Served with all 4.

Good times...

-LAFF

The downside to AFSOC is that the ground-pounder duties involve rescuing downed airmen (PJs), doing air traffic control in a combat zone, and possibly forward air control. You will not be assigned to missions where you hunt down and kill/capture bad guys. If you're OK with that and want to get all kinds of action-adventure training, the PJ's would be good.

Due to the lack on ongoing focus on direct action, AFSOC guys are not quite as badass as the army/navy operators.

I'm sure there are others here who can answer that better. But with every ODA in the field there is a USAF JTAC, and they do lots and lots of hunting down and killing bad guys.

Fortunately we haven't had many downed airmen, and not doing much ATC in the field--but there is a sh!tload of Forward Air Control.

I'm sure glad LAFF is on here to solve all of our decision making for us.

Again, just like flight schools each military branch is different. What is right for one is not right for another. And no LAFF, I don't agree with you on your ranking of the services. To just broadly say that the AF (Or any branch for that matter) is hands down the best of all the branches you are either susceptible to any flavor of Kool Aid that is poured down your throat or you are trying to intentionally start an argument.

In my opinion the only things better about the AF are the QOL, short deployments, and general lack of stress. ***NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYONE HERE***

But yeah LAFF, I guess if you want to go to a nice little summer camp for six weeks and have the option to pull out a little "Stress" card every time someone yells at you then the Air Force would be the way to go ;)

It's true that all kinds of people are getting thrown into the fight at this point. Since this conversation was about a career path I was addressing typical historical utilization...who knows how much longer we will be operating at this intensity? I assume quit a while, but you never know after the elections...

At this time even skillsets which normally play a supporting role in special operations are getting plenty of trigger time...SWCC's for example are running around all over the desert, and their job is supposed to be boat driver.

While I personally believe in wearing t-shirts I've "earned" rather than things I like, I can't fault others for doing so. Selling t-shirts at airshows bring flying squadrons all sorts of money and it clearly doesn't bother them to have non members wearing them or they wouldn't be for sale. I've sent a civilian bud tshirts from every unit I've been in and I think it's just fine for him to wear them. I think people pretending to be SEALS or anything else they're not is pathetic, I think wearing a t-shirt in support of a friend is okay. But...just my opinion.

General lack of stress? This based on your time spent in the AF, or what experiences?

It all depends on where you work. I don't find my job stress-free in any way whatsoever.

Lack of stress...... ha, here we go.

The young man needs to consider what will happen if he's part of the 75% or more that will fail out of SEAL training. What then?

If I was interested in special forces I'd look to the AF. If you don't make it your have plenty of options and your QOL will be better than the other services.

I've lived and worked on bases run by our sister services. I'd take the AF any day of the week...


-LAFF

Ther are a variety of other jobs in special warfare and special operations, and a BUDS atrite would not normally have a problem getting accepted...

SWCC (special boat unit driver)
EOD diver
Deep sea diver
Special warfare logistics support
Etc.


I'm not sure what the exact arrangement is, but I believe the navy will allow to join specifically for BUDs, and then release you if you wash out for a legit reason (not misconduct). They are doing this to attract people (college-level athletes) who would not otherwise join the navy.

Or you can join the Marines and do it all. Fly, FAC whatever. You will not necessarily have the SOC sticker and money unless you are in MARSOC though. There are plenty of other units out there to join, ANGLICO, Recon Bn, Force Recon and MEUs. Lots of options here.

Thanks LAFF. When I read your first post it sounded like one of those "My branch is the best the rest suck" posts. You're right, he does need to consider the likelihood of washing out of training and decide which branch he would want to be in if he were in a non special operations position.

I would also like to live on an AF base as opposed to most other military bases (A few exceptions but generally the AF's are quite a step above the rest) but for the bases and QOL weren't reason enough to dissuade me from joining another branch.

Hacker I do believe we were discussing mostly enlisted jobs correct? He did ask about enlisting with a SEAL contract did he not? So the discussion was over combat arms type enlisted jobs. Yes, I do have quite a bit of experience with the enlisted side of all the branches. I have a lot of family that served in the Air Force, I have family in the Army, I grew up by an Air Force base, I served four years enlisted in the Marine Corps (infantry), and yes I did get the chance to serve alongside some fine airmen.

So here is my opinion (We are allowed to have those correct?) formed from personal experience, enlisted airman are subjected to far less stressful environments than the enlistees of the Army and Marines. What percentage of the Air Force's enlisted airmen are deployed in a combat zone at any one time? What are the odds of an airman that enlists today having to do multiple combat deployments throughout the course of his enlistment in the current wartime environment? If you enlist in a combat arms MOS in the Marine Corps or Army you pretty much have a written guarantee that you are going to be put into combat and get to experience everything that comes with it. If you enlist in the Air Force I'm pretty sure your chances of seeing combat are pretty low.

So yes sir, when I'm comparing an Air Force enlistment to an Army enlistment or Marine Corps enlistment I am going to take the likelihood of combat in to account when I talk about QOL and stress. And upon comparing that I come to the opinion that enlistment in the Air Force, while not easy, will not be as physically, emotionally, or mentally demanding as as an enlistment in the Marine Corps or Army.

And just so we are clear here, I am not minimizing anybodies job in the military. I am not disrespecting anybodies contribution to our country or the war effort. I am not saying that one branch is better or worse than the others. I am not trying to insult or offend anyone. And I am most certainly not saying that because you are in the Air Force that you have it easy or don't serve our country.

Thank you for your service Hacker, I meant no disrespect with my previous post.

MARSOC is currently...problematic. I wouldn't bet on that as a long-term plan.

ANGLICO and the recons are cool (done some myself as a liaison in fact) but hard to stay there for an extended period, especially for the officers.

If you're serious about special operations, you really want to be in a SOCOM funded program (SEAL, Army SF/Av Regiment, AFSOC, rangers). That guarantees several things, including career employment. If you don't really understand what SOCOM is, do some research, it's more than you think.

Found this on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXx5td6_IqM

US/UK special forces fighting in Afghanistan.

-LAFF

Making an offensive post and then making the "not trying to offend" disclaimer doesn't work.

The Air Force doesn't do stress for fun and practice like the other services. We just do stress for real.

Anyone making fun of USAF special forces just doesn't have a clue what they actually do. Really, you just don't know.

No, I was not referring to the pararescue jumpers. In fact I do believe we were discussing what would happen to the original poster if he did in fact wash out of special operations training. I'm pretty sure anybody in there right mind has a high respect for a member of any special operations group, as well as a member of any branch of the armed forces.

And thank you for agreeing with my opinion in your argumentative post. I'm pretty sure that what I stated was that the Air Force doesn't intentionally and constantly try to impose a lot of stress on enlisted airmen. You said it yourself, the Air Force doesn't do stress for practice or 'fun' you only do it for real whereas the Army and Marines (Not too sure about the Navy) are always making their enlisted members perform under high amounts of stress to 'practice' or 'train' for when we are put in combat.

Sorry you don't agree with my opinion, and for clarification I never said an ill word about the PJ's. Quit trying to make it sound like I was disrespecting the Air Force.

Not sure how you wouldn't mean it as an insult but, okay. Having spent the last several years with the Army, whenever they started *****ing about the AF I'd usually remind them that "life's about choices," smile and move on.

Fact of life, AF has been in Gulf since 1990. I know all sorts of non PJ's/SOF who spent 5-7 rotations in the Gulf well before to 9-11, something most people like to ignore.

I was also an Infantryman, a soldier. There was a moment of dawning comprehension one day when I suddenly determined that the vast majority of people on my post lived lives that in no way even remotely resembled mine. I suspect that once you move past the "every Marine a rifleman" line you might realize that the life of a Marine admin clerk has far more in common with the life of an Army or even AF admin clerk than it does with a Marine grunt.

QOL and stress aren't the same thing. The USMC does take a bizarre pleasure in making sure their lives are a miserable as possible in terms of living conditions, that isn't synomous with stress. How about doing multiple deployments coming home and finding out the AF is downsizing more than 10% and your career field just got axed? That's stress.

You speak of the AF as though you have a clue what you're talking about. We'll skip over SF. Do you know much about the LRS career field? Go find one of them and ask them how their lives are. AF guys all make fun of cops but take a look at their deployment rates and living conditions down range. Or how about your average Herc crew dog, spending 135 out, 115 back, going on four years now. Little bit of stress on the homefront. Do you know what a TACP is? It isn't SF yet they live rather stressful lives, and the vast majority of it downrange. How about my favorite, AF transporters? We have a small unit where I'm at with a couple KIA and far too many purple hearts considering what they enlisted for.

Is any of that equivalent to a Marine Infantryman? Other than the TACP probably not, though the war is completely different 24 hours or 100 yards away. Step outside the grunt comparison...and really it's pretty clear you didn't bother to let the fact you'd no idea what you were talking about get in the way of opening your mouth and sticking your foot in it.

Okay, I concede defeat here gentlemen. It was not my intention to say that the Air Force is free of stress or easy by any stretch of the imagination. It seems that what I said was interpreted that way by many of you. But yes, I do know how long the Air Force has been deployed abroad. I also know quite a bit about the different job fields within the Air Force. It is amazing what you can learn about a branch by having family members that serve, I guess since I enlisted in a different branch then my opinion is null and void though.

You are correct however, from my position within the military I probably have a skewed perspective of what is normal in a four year enlistment. And despite what you say I was not insulting anybody that chooses to serve in the military in any capacity. I was trying to point out something that the original poster would want to consider when deciding upon which branch to join.

If anybody here would like to continue this discussion via PM feel free. However I do not think that we need to derail this thread anymore with pointless bickering.

This horse is still moving, I must kick it again!

Spartan; I'm guessing from your post that you think USAF SOF are limited to PJ's. When I think of USAF SOF forces, I'm thinking of some other career fields too. Some that might not be as obvious but are very much on the tip of the spear.

Yep, I'm very well aware of them but I do mostly think of the PJ's when I think of SOC. However, with interest toward maintaining civil, informative discussions on this forum I think it would be more appropriate to either discuss this via PM or not at all.

My hat is off to all those brave men and women still manning (Or is it now unmanning CPO?;)) the front lines!

He doesn't have any. Think of his physical attributes as being perfectly inline with Bobby Hill. On another note LAFF I had no idea you'd been around so much. Thanks for the service!