Civillian Vs Military [Medium-Long Read]
 

Hey everyone. I know you are all probably sick of answering this question. Hell, there's even one a page back. Anyway... I really can't think of anything I'd enjoy as much as flying (feel free to suggest your dream career). I'm just stuck on the decision to fly military or civillian. I'll give you some background.

I just got out of high school, been thinking about my career choices for awhile. My brother flys for SWA, flew with him in light planes on his x-countries and stuff... So I'm interested to say the least. =). I'm lucky enough to have 20/20 with no color blindness. Gonna head to a flight doc to make sure I can pass Class I. I'm also lucky enough to have the means to pay for civillian training, which makes the dicision actually hard =) (some of us bastards have it real tough). I've been told it comes to how bad I want to fly military aircraft, and how much i want to serve my country. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't just join to get the training/hours.

What I'm really looking for is the REAL info on military flying. I'm not some dumb-struck teenager drunk on dreams of Top Gun. I understand that that isn't the reality.
Some Questions: What are the other duties and jobs you have to do as an officer? How long will you actually be FLYING as you move up through the ranks? Can you get stuck on non-flying assignments very easily? Whats the toll on the family life? Do you ever lose sleep over any kind of "lethal weapons, life risking" type issues? Exactly HOW cool is that F-16, F-22, C-130? After seperation, how much time/skills would you say is lost/gained from being in the military when transitioning to civ (Civillian being based on seniority can be kinda jacked up)? How does salary compare (per diem, on base housing/food, base salary, after taxes, flight pay)?

I've heard things like, you are an officer first, then a pilot. That's the kind of thing that concerns me. I don't want to go in and then get stuck on a non-flying assignment after promotion to O-4 simply because they don't need me anymore (UAV's, w/e it actually is).

I just really want an insiders view. Do you regret it at all? Maybe I'm not even asking the right questions, and you guys know things that people like me wouldn't think about.

If I were to go military, I'd probably go ROTC, instead of OCS. I actually have an appointment to the AFA, but I need to go to a semester at one of their little "pre-schools" cause I slacked off in highschool. Just got in on my ACT. I probably wouldnt go because I have 35 credits at another college anyway, some of which I'd lose going to the AFA. I've also been investigating the Reserve/ANG option so I could work civillian at the same time, but I'm getting exhausted of researching.

I really just don't know how bad I want to fly military aircraft. If I went civillian my job would JUST be flying, and I would prefer that if there are a TON of other jobs/duties that come from being in the military, or if there is a high chance of a non-flying assignment. However, the military has pensions/retirement/benefits, that if civ flying goes south, will still be there.

Or should I just muck the whole thing and be a Doctor in a health-care system about to fall apart?



Thanks!

It's good that you're carefully considering this. In my opinion that you shouldn't go into the military for the sole purpose of piloting an airplane. You ARE an officer first and a pilot second. Your prime motivation should be to serve your country. This is not a game. It's deadly serious business. In the course of a career, expect to have friends and squadron-mates killed and injured in the course of their duties . . . and maybe yourself. Chances are extremely good that you will have non-flying assignments in your career. As a major or lieutenant colonel it's likely that even if you are still in a flying slot, you'll be doing more non-flying duties than flying.

What are the other duties and jobs you have to do as an officer?

Lots. There are lots of ancillary duties in a flying squadron, such as performance report monitor, voting officer, etc. etc. etc.


How long will you actually be FLYING as you move up through the ranks?

Depends on the weapons system, but probably up through junior major.


Can you get stuck on non-flying assignments very easily?

Yes. Or you can get non-vol assignments like getting assigned as a instructor pilot at UPT.


Whats the toll on the family life?

Can be considerable. Lots of temporary duty for long periods of time. Your wife/spouse needs to be able to function well independently and without you for long periods of time. A "needy" spouse is not going to cope well with military life.


Do you ever lose sleep over any kind of "lethal weapons, life risking" type issues?

No.

Exactly HOW cool is that F-16, F-22, C-130?

"Cool" is in the eye of the beholder. Employing weapons systems effectively is difficult and requires lots of hard work. Don't have much time to think about cool.

After seperation, how much time/skills would you say is lost/gained from being in the military when transitioning to civ (Civillian being based on seniority can be kinda jacked up)?

Not sure I understand the question, but military flying time is highly valued by airlines.


How does salary compare (per diem, on base housing/food, base salary, after taxes, flight pay)?

Military pay is very very good in comparison with most major airlines, who have taken massive compensation and work rule cuts. You can do a compensation comparison fairly easily using this website and official military payscales. Make no mistake, however, do NOT expect to be treated with respect or value by airline managements. To them you're a "cost unit" only. Unions are only marginally effective and unity within most unions is poor with wide chasms between the senior and junior pilots' compensation and schedules. As a junior pilot, expect to be "sold-out" by senior pilots.

IMHO, I would absolutely NOT start a career as a civilian pilot. I highly discourage all young guys from becoming civil pilots. The fact now is you're not treated as a professional, nor compensated as one.

You need to be hungry and driven to fly jets in the military (I will only speak to flying fighters/military side). This may get you through the intense pressure at pilot training. If you are not sure, then you may already lack the drive. That being said, I will toss in my 2 cents.

What are the other duties and jobs you have to do as an officer?
Initially, you learn to do your job which is employ your weapons system. In fighters, it takes almost 2 years to get to a combat unit. Then for the next couple of years your job is learning how to employ your fighter, knowing all the weapon systems, etc. You will have additional duties but the flying usually keeps you ‘drunk’ enough to minimize the pain.

How long will you actually be FLYING as you move up through the ranks?
This depends. I just summarized about the first 5 years in the AF (very exec summary like). Guessing flying hours…about 700 to 900 in 3 years at a combat unit. This will definitely vary.

Can you get stuck on non-flying assignments very easily?
In the 10 years you will owe for completing flying training, you should expect it. This will also depend. I avoided a non flying job until my 14th year.

What’s the toll on the family life?
My family was able to grow up in many countries and multiple places. Asking them, they wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Do you ever lose sleep over any kind of "lethal weapons, life risking" type issues?
You learn to employ your weapons system as a professional. Loosing sleep will depend on the person I guess.

Exactly HOW cool is that F-16, F-22, C-130?
“Top Gun” drunk cool… 8 fighters working together sweeping through airspace ‘killing’ 20 bad guys…480 kts at 200ft for 45 mins ending at a bombing range…

After separation, how much time/skills would you say is lost/gained from being in the military when transitioning to civ (Civillian being based on seniority can be kinda jacked up)? How does salary compare (per diem, on base housing/food, base salary, after taxes, flight pay)?
I had too much fun to care too much about the money. Civilian pilots with as much time as me probably make or made much more money…but many still walk up and say they wish they could have flown in the military but their eyes were not good enough.

Do you regret it at all?
Absolutely not!

USAF Academy note:
This education is worth a ton of money alone but again you need to be driven to make it through.

It appears you certainly have thought about this a lot. Hope this helps.
Good luck

The only little problem I see with the military is that your spouse can't develop professionally, that person must be a stay home person because there is not much around the air force bases. Also they don't get to fly much, the typical fighter pilot finish its career with 3-4000ish hours when the civil guy finish with 5 times that.

Airlines give you the freedom that the air force will not give you. once you have some seniority you can be home for a week or more not worry about much and you can live in any city you want.

At the end I think it depends on your long term goals. Air force flying is awesome but freedom is restricted---specially for family members. Airline flying is like a non-stop vacation but it doesnt have good job security.

Hope it helps

You are approaching this carefully...that's good.

Sounds to me like you would be suited for either route...so why not do both?

The ideal "dual track" is Air National Guard/AF Reserve because you can get hired off the street, spend a couple years on active duty in training, and then resume your civilian career in parallel with the military. Numerous advantages: Pick your military base location, pick your aircraft (or at least rule out helos), not be forced to relocate every three years. You will also be VERY competetive for a major airline job prior to age thirty. Getting a guard pilot slot requires a great deal of intiative and legwork, people on these forums can point you in the right direction.

Doing regular active duty military is a great way to break into aviation, and will put you far ahead of your civilian peers in compensation and airline job opportunities. There's just one big downside: There is no guarantee that you will be assigned fixed-wing aircraft. If you get assigned helo's, that flight time does not count for major airlines (and only one regional that I know of). After your intial operational helo tour you would have to attempt to get a fixed wing Instructor Pilot slot teaching entry-level military pilots to get your FW time up.

I second Rickair...I am a Guard baby and don't regret it one bit! However messed up those AFA guys/gals are, there is something to be said for getting paid to go to school and coming out a ringknocker with 2LT bars...best possible choice, go to the Zoo (Academy) and Palace Chase ASAP (means get off active duty before you are supposed to and get on with a Guard/Reserve unit)...that way, the govt pays for your school (and pays you) and then you get to spend a few years tasting the AD side of the house (flying is almost guaranteed as a LT and new Capt.) then when the bs factor gets high, you punch out and go to the Guard which brings you back to flying and minimizes the bs...to me, that is the best of all worlds but what do I know...

I'm navy so not too familiar with the USAF obligated service requirements, but if you can attend a US service academy and then transition to guard/reserves early, that would be a sweet deal. That academy ring can come in mighty handy in a lot of circumstances.

Thanks everyone. Looks like I need to investigate some ANG units, reasearch that side of things some more.

Still having a tough time making the decision. Like FNG1 said, it looks my brother's life is just a non-stop vacation, he finally has decent pay, and can get decent schedules, get the domiciles he wants. Its pretty tempting. I'm trying not to fool myself about the security of airline jobs though. Seems like every "expert" has a different take on it.

What are the other duties and jobs you have to do as an officer?

I've been a scheduler, a tactics guy, a mobility guy...etc. In my squad's old way of doing things this translated into very little office work. In the new day and age (2 squadron deployed C-17 stage) there's a lot less flying (we use to be swamped with flying) and now there's more time unfortunately for office stuff. I currently fly a local trainer once a week and fly an overseas 2 week mission every 2 months or so.

How long will you actually be FLYING as you move up through the ranks?

You do two MWS tours (ie. the C-17/F-16/KC-135, etc) and 1 white jet tour (T-1/T-6/C-21/ etc) in your first 10 years. That's the usual track for the majority of Air Force pilots. There are a rash of UAVs going around right now though and 1st tour MWS guys are usually the one's getting stuck with them.

Can you get stuck on non-flying assignments very easily?

It's all about timing. Timing is everything - getting your Aircraft Commander and Instructor qual is also very important.

Whats the toll on the family life?

It is real - don't kid yourself. For all the guys who have the good deals of living overseas there are plenty of guys who've had to take one or more 4-6 month separations (sometimes up to a year) from their loved ones. Consider this part carefully because for all of the financial security in the military, in my view, you do sacrifice some quality of life because of the deployments.

Do you ever lose sleep over any kind of "lethal weapons, life risking" type issues? No.

Exactly HOW cool is that F-16, F-22, C-130?

I think the C-17 is very cool...airdrop missions, airevac missions, dirt landings, large formation exercises (just did a 15ship), glass cockpit, full automation, stick & hud, 330KTS at 300 feet...a lot of good times.

After seperation, how much time/skills would you say is lost/gained from being in the military when transitioning to civ (Civillian being based on seniority can be kinda jacked up)?

I don't think this is a huge deal. The airlines still highly respect a military experienced pilot. You do start on the ground floor in seniority so that is a good counterpoint.

How does salary compare (per diem, on base housing/food, base salary, after taxes, flight pay)?

If I was on the outside, for all the tax free, non-taxed allowances, per diem, etc - I'd be making 6 figures (6 year officer).

I've heard things like, you are an officer first, then a pilot. That's the kind of thing that concerns me. I don't want to go in and then get stuck on a non-flying assignment after promotion to O-4 simply because they don't need me anymore (UAV's, w/e it actually is).

Well you have an option at that point of getting out...yes, officer first pilot second.

OK...enough about my life.

Here's what you need to do. You'll thank me after you've done it.

Find whatever aircraft you're thinking you're wanting to go after -
Identify which guard/reserve unit flies that aircraft -
Interview at that guard/reserve unit...after a few years on orders interview at airline and continue to fly part time in the guard/reserve while building seniority at airline.
It really can't be simpler.

And I'm done.
Best of luck!

You're hearing great advice from everyone with regards to flying but I will also add that you seriously look at and consider the AFA. You say you have an appointment there and those dont come easy so make sure you know what you are passing up. Its not for everyone and there are many other good schools but in this profession many things can knock you out of the flying game and you definitely want to have a solid background to fall back on. In addition, if you do fly I would guess there are probably more airline pilots from the service academies than from any other single college (except maybe ERAU). If I'm wrong I know someone will quickly correct me....

One thing to keep in mind is that if you go through OTS (Officer Training School - for those that already have their degree) on a pilot slot, you have a GUARANTEED pilot slot. AFA and ROTC can't do that for you regarding that detail. It's a competitive route, but it's the only way to make SURE you're going to UPT if you're not in the ANG. FYI

Have to add - If you want to be a officer/PILOT instead of OFFICER/pilot, I have to plug Army warrants...

There are fixed wing opportunities if you rank high enough in your class. If you just want to fly and helo is ok, there's a lot of options. There are Army aviators (fixed and rotor) working at every major and fractional. But, you will spend MUCH more time over there than AF guys. Trust me.

Quite simply, if you're having a reservation about the military, don't do it. You'll be miserable about most things (family separation, putting up with that d!ck IP in the training command, non-flying duties (in the Navy, those are far more important than whether you're the ace of the base wrt getting what you want for follow on tours), the work hours, dealing with Seaman Timmy's drinking problem, Airman Boado's amateur porn tape (I kid you not!) etc. etc.) to the point where you won't enjoy the good (flying) and fantastic (day traps). Yes, you'll average about 350 hours a year, but you'll be working your a$s off during each one of those hours. 8 hours of autopilot is easier than 45 mins of ACM, and that is recognized in the civilian world.

Bottom line (from me) is that you got to want to serve as an officer first, then flying is a cool bonus and time away from the boss. If you go in thinking "I'm gonna learn to fly then go to the airlines" life is going to suck. When the time comes (commitment's up) everyone looks at their situation and decides what is best.

Sorry to be the fun sponge,

Spongebob

I joined the Marine Corps for one simple reason, I wanted to fly fighters and they were the Marine Corps was the only service that would guarantee me a pilot slot. I understood the risks of joining and talked to enough military pilots to know that no matter what I flew in the military it would be an experience like no other. Like everyone said your on the right track. Keep researching and then make your decision. If you know what your getting into then I think you'll be happy with your choice no matter what you decide. Good luck!

In a nutshell. Go ROTC/OTS/OCS, go guard/reserve (if able), if not, pilot training, go guard/reserve after commitment is up.

I'll try to help because I was pretty much in your shoes not THAT long ago. I went military and ended up staying for 20 years active duty before I went to the airlines. I had several civilian ratings BEFORE and during the time I was in the military, so I paid for flight time as well.
If you want to fly military and civilian, try to go Guard or Reserve. If I had it to do over again, I'd do that.
I had an appointment to the AFA too, but I blew it off and got an AFROTC scholarship.... that allowed me to fly as a CFI, chase women, have a job, a car and an apartment while going to a state school. More freedom, same result and school paid for.....
AFA is good, and a good school, but it wasn't for me... I'm not that disciplined and didn't want to be.
It is not "easy" to get stuck in non-flying assignments in the AF. Almost impossible if you are a good stick and have a good attitude.

I went to the military to fly and get it paid for, to fly jets... not Service before self etc. I went there to fly then get out. Ended up staying 20 years and was a commander a couple of times etc..... but I'm not joking; I wasn't into the "total commitment" and it worked for me. But you can't ever let that attitude show--to anyone.

Other jobs than flying: I've been: Scheduler, public affairs officer, duty officer, safety officer, tactics officer, training officer, instructor pilot, standardization/evaluation officer; executive officer, operations officer, and commander all WITHIN a flying squadron: Inspector general, exercise evaluation officer; readiness officer; Operations Officer; budget officer and safety chief OUTSIDE the squadron during staff tours. And a STUDENT at Air Command and Staff College (9 months) Joint Forces Staff College (6 months); and Air War College (9 months).
How long flying moving up through the ranks? I flew for 16 of 20 years with breaks for the schools above and for a staff tour at the Pentagon (2.5 years). I flew 8 different types of aircraft and logged about 7.5K flight hours in the military. With all the free time i had in the military at the "lower" ranks, I flew about 1500 hours of civilian flying --- CFI, charter, own aircraft etc.

It's not "easy" to get stuck in non-flying assignments in the AF. It will happen if you stay in at about the 12 year point as part of "normal" career progression--but it doesn't happen earlier unless you are not a good stick or have a bad attitude---this is not an absolute; it CAN happen, but it's not "easy" to get stuck non-flying. Toll on family life---was not a probem at all for me. It is for some. I guess that's a personal experience. You will be deployed and will be gone from home some (depending on what you do and what aircraft you fly--from very little to a lot). I was home a lot.

Lose sleep over lethal weapons, life risking issues? None. Ever ... lose sleep? No way. This is the part that I MISS!
How cool is the F-16 etc.... the military aircraft and missions are pretty darn cool---really. The missions are what I miss. Airline flying is BORING.
Transitioning? In my case no loss of skill. I flew charter in Citations and had my own plane--flew aerobatics with a club and maintained CFI and taught at aero club. I never lost touch with civilian side; either general aviation or corporate. With the free time you have and the money you have for training (according to your post); with military pay you'll be able to fly GA whenever you want. I also volunteered to fly medical supplies to remote areas of North America-- there are lots of things you can do... remember; you'll have free time especially if you stay single.
Military pay is good these days....especially with tax breaks. After about 8 years, your military pay is better than most flying jobs out there and you saved all that money on training as well

You are an officer first and you will go to a non flying job if you want to get promoted--you MAY not have to if you don't depending on the AF needs at the time you get to O-4. Depends on what you want. You are an officer first, but that doesn't mean you can't fly throughout your career. I ended up flying 16 years out of 20 with 7500 military flight hours. Some of my buddies flew for all the 20 years but retired as a Major (O-4)

Do I regret it? Absolutely not. It worked for me. Also got free flight training, free schooling, etc. Have 40K per year in play money now. The only thing I would have done differently was go to the reserves at year 8.... but I wouldn't have the 40K per year now.

Bottom line: Go to ROTC/OCS, pilot training then guard/reserve. While you are in the guard/reserve you can get the airline job and accrue seniority. I recommend the military route vs civilian only---and when you get out, you have all that training.
Or you can be a Doctor and make enough cash to buy you own jet!!!!
Good luck; you sound like you'll do well.:cool:

Maltese
Well said!

Great post

But this is where I got to say, "results not typical."

Sadly I've seen very little in my career to indicate flying skills--to include a complete lack--really has much impact in the assignment process. Though in my FAIP days it was clear that a number of bases had dumped their unable to upgrade guys on us.

More to the point though, I've really seen very few folks make it to 20 and stay in flying the entire time outside of school. So I seriously congratulate you for that one, it's inspiring. The folks I do know that stayed in a cockpit all ended as 20 year majors.

If I had to guess I'd say you hit the 12 year point somewhere in mid to late 90s, when the pilot shortage was at it's worst and the assignment Gods consequently were willing to leave staffs empty, and more unusually, send guys from school straight back to flying. Everyone I know at ACSC has walked in trying to get a cockpit on the backside, don't know anyone who's pulled it off yet. It ain't called air command and STAFF college for nothing.

Best of all, it appears that CONUS staffs are going to 4 years long unless you get picked up for command. And if you don't get picked up for command....I think it's getting back to the historical norm where they don't keep a half dozen O5's hanging round the squadron anymore. And therefore your reward for the staff is...more staff.

Anyway, that's the way my thinking went. I really didn't want to do a staff and didn't. We'll see what it does to my career later.

I wasn't being sarcastic up there, it really is pretty inspiring that you were able to fly so much, and have that kind of career. Not to mention 7.5K hours is pretty crazy. I don't know anyone up that high, and I'm a heavy guy. It's rare to see anyone over 5K on active duty.

I would think hard about the pros/cons of the AFA.

Pros,
first 2 yrs are free
60% of grads continue on to flight school
even if your vision isn't perfect, you will go to pilot training (how blind you can be depends on the yr)
great education

cons,
it is not a real school, so the closest you will come to the typical college experience is the prep school and the occasional weekend
people will yell at you from time to time during your first year
you don't get summers off, but there are a lot of good times to be had.


Like any school, it is what you make it. Keep your sense of humor and you'll likely make it through fine.

Do the ROTC thing and have your vision go from 20/20 as a senior......will more than likely lose your pilot slot and off you go into the career you didn't want.

If you want to fly, and by that I mean really experience the thrill of it, go in the military. I know I'm going to **** a lot of people off by saying this, but IMHO after 20 years of flying, the only "real" flying I've done has been in the military. And I'll break that done further-- the 5 years I flew the T-37 and the flying I'm doing now in the C-17, which I'll break down further to say the time spent lowlevel flying, air-refueling, and assualt patterns/landings. Any time spent with an autopilot on IMHO opinion is not flying (and I have 10 years with a major airline) and the civilian flying I've done autopilot off just isn't that thrilling. Flame away!! So why do I "fly" for a major airline if it isn't real flying? Money and QOL (which went down the crapper on 9/11). My advice--if you want to fly go into the military, otherwise go get a real job!