TBoneF15

I'm going to need to spend some time at my mil job soon. Been in Delta training since early Jan and, with the F-15 grounding, I haven't flown Eagles since early Nov and only 6 times since mid-Sept.

Reading the contract, any mil leaves of 30 days or less end 8 hours after the completion of uniformed service

My question is: do I need to (or can I) tag a day of mil leave on either end of my planned military days? I'm going to be a commuter. With pilot rest and all, it's not like I could finish a trip late the night before, then commute back and be good to go the next morning for the AF. And there's no chance I can finish a day of mil flying and then commute to be in place 8 hours later, let alone with any sort of sleep.

And does anyone know how it works with scheduling...I need to spend maybe 6-8 days a month min at my mil job. Plus 18 or so on reserve for DAL. Plus commuting on either end. I'm worried I'll never see a day off.

Anyone out there with insight/advice on how to work this at DELTA (i.e. how it works at other carriers doesn't really help me)?

SaltyDog

I don't work at DAL, but what I will tell you is USERRA and Yes, works at DAL and trumps contractual language if the contract is less protection than USERRA. Yes, you can tag or more a day on either side. USERRA Section 4312 (e) 1. (a) i, and ii;

"In the case of a person whose period of service in the uniformed services was less than 31 days, by reporting to the employer--
i. not later than the beginning of the first full regularly scheduled work period on the first full calendar day following the completion of the period of service and the expiration of eight hours after a period allowing for the safe transportation of the person from the place of that service to the person's residence; or

ii. as soon as possible after the expiration of the eight-hour period referred to in clause (I), if reporting within the period referred to in such clause is impossible or unreasonable through no fault of the person."

Example: You are an LAX 757 F/O crewmember who lives in Miami, drills at JRB NO flying F-15's. You drill for a week and return from a mission that lands you at 2100Z on a Tuesday.

Question: You have a LAX-ATL redeye pairing that reports 12 hours later at 0900Z (Wednesday morning LAX local). Can DAL expect you to be on your pairing?

Ans. No. you are protected in 38 U.S.C 4312 (e) 1. (a) i, and ii. Even if you lived in LAX, you would not be able to travel in time and meet all the requirments of the FARs,any airline FOM, and the USERRA rest requirements.
What this crewmember needs to do is drop the next trip for MIL until they could reasonably meet the FAR and company regs and USERRA statute and be fully prepared to fly a full crew duty day upon reporting to LAX. This is interpreted that one would take the "8 hours" rest upon arriving in LAX.

In other words, if I were in this situation, would take the 2100Z arrival on Tuesday, commute to MIA (my home)after rest if necessary,lets say it is, since I had a full day on MIL duty, so I add 8 hours and can't commute home to MIA that evening. First flight from MSY-MIA is at 1200Z Wed. It takes 5 hours to MIA, I arrive at 1700Z on Wednesday. All covered in subsection i. I rest for 8 hours (0100Z Thursday) and now begin travel to LAX, I take a 0215Z (2115 local) AMR flight direct to LAX and arrive at 0800Z Thursday. Upon arrival I take 8 hours rest to ensure I can operate a full crew duty day at DAL. It is now 1600Z on Thursday, a full 43 hours hours since landing your Eagle at JRB New Orleans. I would request Military Leave until I could meet all the requirements as required by USERRA/FAR/FOM. In this example,
My MIL request would extend for 2 days beyond my landing time in New Orleans. DAL can't give you grief. You are expected to comply with the law. Even if you lived in LAX, didn't rest after a full military drill day (why?), and took the next flight to LAX. You take DAL direct to LAX at 0020Z and arrive at LAX at 0450Z. Could you still take that trip? Sure, but it would be against USERRA protection and be in violation of the FAR's to arrive fully rested. Could you drop the whole trip ethically and legally? Yes. Unfair to the rest of the crew to operate fatigued ("I got 3 hours sleep on the plane excuse"). So would not change my MIL request at all for the "extra" 2 days. (As you recognize)
It works going into MIL duty. Military expects you rested for a full duty day when you arrive. So add what is required on the front side as well to account for rest and commute time.

As far as your second question, DAL has to let you go on work days, they don't have to pay you, but read the 'escalator clause' and more for your USERRA rights.
I have previous posts on USERRA you may find helpful.
Thanks for serving.

nwaf16dude

Not a delta guy, but I would throw out one bit of advice. Take full advantage of the the USERRA protections. Don't let Delta, your squadron, or your wallet pressure you into flying tired. I lost a bud a few years ago that was burning the candle hard at both ends flying for an airline and the squadron. The accident board figured out that he finished an airline trip after midnight and showed up to fly with only a couple of hours of sleep. He was on first year pay and pushing to try to make ends meet. We all say we'll never do anything like that, but after 9 or 10 months of first year pay the lines start getting blury.

hindsight2020

Double commute, to airline rsv no less for one of those? ...d@mn. You know what they say: family, airline, Guard/Reserves. You can only do two at a time, at least successfully. I would give serious consideration to relocating to either the airline domicile or the squadron city. If DAL is the ticket and you're not gunning for a full-time slot at the unit then the airline domicile seems like the obvious choice...

I admire (though not envy) your temperance hacking that schedule, I recently had a heart to heart with the soon-to-be-wife and decided commuting to reserve (to a regional no less) is the devil, so we're living in the squadron city and don't foresee that changing. Of course I'm a low time guy and the consideration was with regionals so it was a no-brainer to make that decision. NWAf16 pretty much summed up my sentiments regarding the commute juggle so ditto on that. Good luck and fly safe.

dtfl

b. Military leaves in excess of 30 days, but less than 180 days will expire 14 days after the conclusion of uniformed service.
c. Military leaves of 30 days or less will expire eight hours after the conclusion of uniformed service.

Like you said - so get 31 days...if you can. BUT....the contract also states they have to give you adequate time to get to your military duty. Can't remember what section. So...if you feel a trip will impact you I would call scheduling.
From what I have read in OUR, (DAL) contract, and what I have encountered, you cannot take a day on the front or back side to commute to the ANG unit, though...as you are not 'working" at your unit. (You might be able to get away with it until they asked for orders) BUT what SaltyDog posted says you can. So..I'd speak with the union MIL rep guy ASAP.

Now..on the back side....you can prolly take an extra day, depending, regardless of USERRA. I was in SOF for a while and now fly slick 130s - I usually fly the night flights. By the time we land at 2230-2300, debrief and I fill out the training folders, it's after midnight. I was still on duty. I cannot get home, or home then on a flight in a couple-three hours as I am not crew rested. In those instances I take that next day. For evidence I would let my Sq Sched know as your TP might expire at 2300, although you worked later...and he/she can back you up if the company asks.

Dig into the contract regarding the time they give you and watch that when a trip ends on the afternoon or evening prior to your TP/Man day, UTA, etc. They rerouted me but promised I had XX flights to get home on at a decent time...but we encountered WX and had a MED Emer. Not scheduling's fault. I missed 1/2 of UTA.

dtfl

I used to live in the Sq city and commute to DAL. Now I live 2hrs 20 min from my Res unit and commute. I changed units for QOL (AFSOC vs AMC now) and realized Id have a 2.5 hr drive. Prolly going to move 1 hr from the unit and within 45 min of two airports. Still a commute..but....hell......I think we are crazy!!!

I have had the same convo with the GF..soon to be..Financee...etc...oops..i mean FIANCEE

nwaf16dude

I'll throw in another two cents on this one... for me it's always worked best to live at the reserve unit location. First, when I'm doing home station mil duty I'm home every night. So, if I drop an airline trip for a little extra mil time, I'm doing it from home. A couple of weeks of mil duty can make a nice break from that first year airline schedule. For my first couple of years at NWA, I could actually make more money in a day of mil duty than I could at NWA.
Think further down the road though ( If you plan to participate in the reserve for a long time.) When you get to the point that you're making decent money at the airline and the financial pressure to do mil duty starts letting up, the wife is going to start getting tired of those extra days out of town to do mil duty. Will be a lot easier to continue your mil career if you're not having to commute to it. I've lost a couple of guys from my unit over that issue. Got to keep the wife happy, you know.

SaltyDog

I say again, USERRA trumps poor contract language, including that language in the DAL contract. You can take more than your contract says if it violates USERRA. If they go after you, enjoy the win. AMR and Southwest have gone after airline guys claiming to follow company/contract. Uncle Sam doesn't like employers screwing around with the all volunteer force, especially during this GWOT.
We have won this one at our airline. Work with the Department of Labor VETS office folks, the ESGR folks. PM me if you need more details. Talk to your ESGR folks in your state. Find them here: http://esgr.org/contact.asp
Companies, usually out of ignorance, will violate USERRA. They usually have zero training on this law. Even when they have training, they seem to initially desire to violate it like your contract. Doesn't go through same channels though, it goes to a complaint process outside of the contract.Ooops to the company.
Can't do it, contract language can't do it. You can take the time as I described on front and back end of your airline trips. You also don't need to give orders, just verbal notification. They can ask, you do not need to comply. Always be professional, ethical, be intelligent, but take the time you need to do your job safely on both ends of the spectrum. It's protected by USERRA.

rickair7777

I'm with Salty on this one. USERRA trumps company policy and union contracts in all cases. If no one at DAL has fought the battle (hard to believe) then you might have to. Or maybe they make each reservist fight his own battle, whatever. You will still win this one.

roadwarrior

Listen to SaltyDog....