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-   -   Do we need the AF? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/27340-do-we-need-af.html)

CheyDogFlies 06-11-2008 07:59 AM

Do we need the AF?
 
No! No! No!

Donate the airframes to a good cause, like UPS, FDX, DAL, NWA, or CAL who will find an efficient means of using the assets for profit and not waste.

SaltyDog 06-11-2008 08:05 AM

Yes, we need the USAF to project airpower (including space airpower)
Yes, We need the Army to wage war on land and occupy
Yes, We need the Navy for our seapower projection (Maritime strategy)
Yes, we need the USMC to be able to project our power ashore from a Maritime delivery mode. (and to give the Army an example of a real 'soldier' <g>)
Yes, we need a Coast Guard to maintain/protect the navigable waters domestically and coastal law enforcement.
We need them all, we need to work together, and we are like never before.
The overlaps are necessary. Each service needs a certain amount of organic capability) Marines/Squadrons aboard ships for effective power projection.
USAF has/does coordinate between all services (in cooperation) with other services.
If we dilute any of the services essential missions, we will become even more costly. I hope we don't blend like Canada.

1Seat1Engine: Why does the USMC need their own airpower? Because all services need a certain amount of organic capability. Reason Navy turns F-18's into tankers at the boat. Like USAF has some of their own oceangoing vessells/tugs etc. The Navy doesn't need to run those organic requirements. If they did, they would always be at USAF locations anyway and someone would say cheaper if they were USAF. Thus, they are.
We can mass forces, yet do our independent missions as needed by national policy, we need certain overlap to ensure mission success and cost savings.

USMCFLYR 06-11-2008 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by SaltyDog (Post 402228)
Yes, we need the USAF to project airpower (including space airpower)
Yes, We need the Army to wage war on land and occupy
Yes, We need the Navy for our seapower projection (Maritime strategy)
Yes, we need the USMC to be able to project our power ashore from a Maritime delivery mode. (and to give the Army an example of a real 'soldier' <g>)
Yes, we need a Coast Guard to maintain/protect the navigable waters domestically and coastal law enforcement.
We need them all, we need to work together, and we are like never before.
The overlaps are necessary. Each service needs a certain amount of organic capability) Marines/Squadrons aboard ships for effective power projection.
USAF has/does coordinate between all services (in cooperation) with other services.
If we dilute any of the services essential missions, we will become even more costly. I hope we don't blend like Canada.

1Seat1Engine: Why does the USMC need their own airpower? Because all services need a certain amount of organic capability. Reason Navy turns F-18's into tankers at the boat. Like USAF has some of their own oceangoing vessells/tugs etc. The Navy doesn't need to run those organic requirements. If they did, they would always be at USAF locations anyway and someone would say cheaper if they were USAF. Thus, they are.
We can mass forces, yet do our independent missions as needed by national policy, we need certain overlap to ensure mission success and cost savings.

You answered the larger question and 1Seat1Engine's particular question more eloquently than I would have. The capabilities of the MAGTF are not always well known. I was just going to say 'more bang for the buck' and an incredible PR machine that not even a President could overcome; plus we have the best looking uniform! :p

USMCFLYR

Sputnik 06-11-2008 09:07 AM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 402213)
Sputnik -

And who says that you understand airpower best? The USAF says that you understand airpower best?

USMCFLYR

Don't worry brother, no one is trying to take MC aviation away. As you say, a PR machine second to none.

I do find it kind of funny that airpower zealots can make never ending arguments about why the Army should have zero aviation assets while skipping over the fact that these arguments could be equally aimed at the Navy.

Sputnik 06-11-2008 09:08 AM

And no, the USAF didn't say I understood airpower best, and as a non school guy I guess they're okay ensuring I don't further that knowledge

sigtauenus 06-11-2008 09:10 AM

No offense guys, but the services look at air power differently as well.

As a Marine FAC, I know that aircraft capabilities are included in operational planning from the beginning. When we go to execute a mission, we know in advance that we are going to use surface fires for this target, and air fires for that. When I'm talking to an aircraft, he is there to support me in achieving my objective, which may be achieved by destroying the target.

From the Army perspective, it seems as if CAS is something that is a last resort. Uh-oh, the grunts are in trouble, arty can't reach, better call for air support. Kind of cliche', but true. Part of the problem is that they don't understand what air provides, and you can't use an asset appropriately if you don't know or understand what it does for you. They don't know what air provides because its not an organic asset.

From the Air Force perspective, it seems as though the JTAC on the ground is there to facilitate the pilot dropping the bomb and destroying the target. To the pilot, the target is just a target that needs serviced, and he most likely does not know or understand what objective the grunts are actually trying to achieve.

Its a different mindset.

USMCFLYR 06-11-2008 09:23 AM


Originally Posted by Sputnik (Post 402263)
Don't worry brother, no one is trying to take MC aviation away. As you say, a PR machine second to none.

I do find it kind of funny that airpower zealots can make never ending arguments about why the Army should have zero aviation assets while skipping over the fact that these arguments could be equally aimed at the Navy.

Actually we are going further and further down that road - many believing that the current (or soon to be past) buzz-word of TacAir Integration (TAI) is just another step down that road of the USMC losing its' fixed wing assests. Only the future will tell and I won't be around to see it. Remember that a lot of Naval Aviation is about protecting the battle group and power projection when there is no airfield around. As far as the USMC - like I said to SaltyDog - MAGTF. If you don't understand the Marine Air/Ground Task Force concept then you probably won't understand why the Marine Corps needs/or has it's own organic aviation assests.

USMCFLYR

Sputnik 06-11-2008 09:23 AM


Originally Posted by sigtauenus (Post 402266)
From the Army perspective, it seems as if CAS is something that is a last resort. Uh-oh, the grunts are in trouble, arty can't reach, better call for air support. Kind of cliche', but true. Part of the problem is that they don't understand what air provides, and you can't use an asset appropriately if you don't know or understand what it does for you. They don't know what air provides because its not an organic asset.

From the Air Force perspective, it seems as though the JTAC on the ground is there to facilitate the pilot dropping the bomb and destroying the target. To the pilot, the target is just a target that needs serviced, and he most likely does not know or understand what objective the grunts are actually trying to achieve.

Its a different mindset.

Well, kind of. I don't really know the Marine mindset so I can't talk to it. Though I find it weird you don't let enlisted do it. And found it even weirder that we used to send our enlisted JTACs to support Marines in ops when you didn't have enough of our own--why don't you allow enlisted JTACs?

But still, the AF puts ASOS's and ASOC's down embedded with the Army to do exactly what you described. If the Army doesn't do it, I suppose the intent is that the embedded AF unit will. Clearly, the Army doesn't always agree with how the AF employs airpower though, so maybe you're on to something.

zondaracer 06-11-2008 09:56 AM


Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff (Post 402072)
I think another reason the AF was formed was to ensure air power would not get overlooked or minimized by the Army's and Navy's primary missions--boats and boots.

The ATO has solved many utilization issues in theater, but the need to "train and equip" is why the AF will remain independent arm, IMHO.

Plus, airplanes are only a part of the AF...the space weenies are getting more and more emphasis every day...that's probably the biggest reason the AF isn't going anywhere.

Don't forget the new Cyber Command weenies

SaltyDog 06-11-2008 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by Sputnik (Post 402277)
Well, kind of. I don't really know the Marine mindset so I can't talk to it. Though I find it weird you don't let enlisted do it. And found it even weirder that we used to send our enlisted JTACs to support Marines in ops when you didn't have enough of our own--why don't you allow enlisted JTACs?

But still, the AF puts ASOS's and ASOC's down embedded with the Army to do exactly what you described. If the Army doesn't do it, I suppose the intent is that the embedded AF unit will. Clearly, the Army doesn't always agree with how the AF employs airpower though, so maybe you're on to something.

The Marine mindset is simple: Best to have most experience knowledge in the battlefield. One who has been on both sides of the coin is the best. Can come up with even more opportunities for solutions/options. Certainly the enlisted are competent, but give enough scenarios, the Marine Aviator has more knowledge of the delivery mindset in the air and ground and can think of more solutions. Remember USAF used to use pilots in the role too in past era's.
Summary: Understand the nuances of both being in the cockpit AND sitting in harms way on the ground. Reason why Marine Officers go to the Basic school. Everyone is a groundpounder.


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