Transition from Air Force to Airline
 

Hi, my name is Eli, I'm 18 years old, and am currently in the Air Force ROTC program at Oregon State University. My ultimate goal is to fly for an airline or a business like UPS. What are the pros and cons of having 4 years of military experience? What are the pros and cons of having 10 years of piloting experience in the military in terms of actually getting a job and/or seniority placement?

I'm not sure what you are asking---so I will go through your post and questions point-by-point.

You say you want to fly for an "airline or a business like UPS."

What are the pros and cons of having 4 years military experience.
Pros---many; military service is looked upon very favorably unless you are working for some anti-military organization or a state college.
Cons--you can get killed; you can become disabled

What are the pros and cons of having 10 years of piloting experience in the military?
Pros--military guys get hired at all airlines in very big numbers/percentage. You get paid very very well in training and with an adequate salary. You won't incur seemingly insurmountable expenses while getting your ratings and/or getting low pay in your early years by going the flight instruction/regional route.
Cons--10 year commitment. You will be older/behind in seniority numbers. You have to "put up" with all the military BS (deployments, etc.) I know at age 18 this is fun, but it won't be at age 30 with a family.

By the way there is no advanced placement by being a military guy. Your seniority starts at the bottom for most airline/flying jobs.

Best route: Go reserves or guard and serve your commitment there. You can then start looking for civilian flying jobs as soon as you are qualified vs having to wait until the long commitment is completed.

The Navy is wings + 8...so more like 10 years.

Isn't the Air Force wings + 10...so more like 12?

Mine,

Welcome. A few points to offer. First, do some research in the military transition threads that exist on this site and some others(baseops.net). You will find the answers(opinions) to your questions and many more that you haven't even thought of yet. I think the biggest consideration you need to think about is this: DO NOT join the military simply to build time for an airline gig, you won't be happy. DO join the military because you ultimately want to serve your country and become an Officer first and then a pilot. I dont think many dudes on this board who wear the uniform and wings will argue that point.

Best of luck to you.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: If you want to become an airline pilot; become an airline pilot, not a military pilot. If you want to become a military pilot, do so.

Listen to MEM, If you have the attitude of "this job in the military is a stepping stone", you will likely not succeed in the Air Force, and I would not want you in my squadron. Neither would I want you in my cockpit as First Officer. So, ask yourself who you are and what you want to become. I wanted to be a military officer, I was fortunate enough to be selected to become a pilot, I gave my all to it, was looking for a stable life, was fortunate again, to be hired by a major airline, and continued doing what I loved most as an Air National Guardsman. Log back in fifteen years from now and let us know how it went.

I agree, as an Active Duty B-52 pilot, I can say just rolling through the military to get to the Airlines is probably not a smart idea. You need to want to be a military pilot first. However, if you want to serve but not full time, I highly recommend ditching ROTC in favor of trying to get a guard or reserve flying job. There is not one day that goes by that I don't wish I would have done the guard/reserve thing from the start instead of finishing ROTC and going active duty. I don't mind active duty, but here in the B-52 community and I imagine most others, is that flying is pretty much your additional duty, and not your primary duty like it is supposed to be. Its kind of painful to be active duty right now. Oh, and not to mention you have a very, very high chance now of getting a UAV right out of pilot training. Now that is a suck factor, you bust your but for 54 weeks and all you end up with is a remote control airplane for at least 3 years.

At the risk of being stoned for apostasy, I think that there are plenty of Airline pilots who used the military as a stepping stone. I am one of them. I made my mind up to bail about 1 year into my fleet tour, and positioned my self to make the jump from there on out. (Putting flying above ground job, taking an instructor with the AF that no one else wanted but offered tons of multi engine jet vs single engine turbo prop)

I didn't join the military to become an airline pilot, as others have said, (hell, I didn't even know that pilot would be my first choice til my NROTC training between soph and jr year) but I decided pretty early on that I didn't want to make the military a career.

That being said, you must be committed to the military and the people you are serving with, as well as the mission at hand, even if your goals are not to make it a career. And you have to enjoy it while you can, cause its only in the military that you'll take a crew of sub- 30 year olds to exotic locations with no cares whatsoever.

Somehow a layover with some one who is almost as old as my father just isn't the same.

As far as the Guard/reserve goes, in theory that sounds perfect, but I know the the guys who make a living at it at my AFRES unit are working very hard right now, deploying as much as AD guys to make it work.

Its not always like that, but I just point this out that its not some undiscovered nirvana as some make it out to be.

The pros of mil experience: plenty of networking, quality time

Cons: gone a lot, get to the majors a little later than the regional wunderkids, (but their career trajectory is also a function of the economy.)

MalteseX -

I'm sorry - I have to disagree with your assertion about all that military BS stuff like deployments? Exactly what is BS about deployments? It is what the military does. If you were in the military - did someone have you sign a piece of paper that said that you would never have to deploy or did part of your military physical at some point say t hat you were worldwide deployable?

Mine - I echo all the advice not to use the military as a stepping stone. That 10 years+ will eat you alive. It is great if you decide to get out after 1 tour (or however long it is until your commitment is up). You could be and should be proud of what you would have done, then continue on with chasing your second dream if that is where life takes you.

AD -vs - AR or ANG? Seems everyone on this forum thinks you shold ditch AD for one of the other programs - which is exactly what they are - programs. If you want to serve in the military full time with all the pros and cons that comes along with it - ENJOY!

USMCFLYR

Thank you for all your opinions. You guys are freaking awesome!
I just applied for Embry Riddle University to take the non military route. You guys are right. 10+ years is a bit too much... for me at least.
Does anyone know how much flying hours I can get going through the military and/or going through a flight school program?
Are there any airline pilots that are willing to give me their number so I can talk more personally and with more detail?

Mine,

Hours vary while flying for the military. Flying is a secondary duty for many and I know lots of civilian pilots who have more hours than military folks. Civilian pilots are paid to fly verse military guys who have office duties, staff jobs and flying is secondary.

"I just applied for Embry Riddle University to take the non military route."

OMG, that's a horrible idea. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

"Are there any airline pilots that are..."

I'd suggest that you go to Jetcareers.com - Welcome and read how the web master became a Delta pilot. He has a lot of good info at the home page about how to get into the career. Also, if you go to the perspectives link, you can read about how many other folks did it, including me.

After that, feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have other questions.

I don't think attending ERU is the best way to go. Please run the math comparing your debt at graduation with your potential income as a CFI/Regional pilot for the 10 years following graduation.

Ask your parents to show you their monthly budget to get an idea on living expenses and what taxes do to your income.

Perhaps a good state school, many have aviation programs if you insist on a degree in that area.

I would also comment that there are better civilian paths than ERAU. It may have had some redeeming qualities back in the day, but not so much anymore.

The amount of hours you get in the military is largely irrelevant. The airlines prefer to hire military pilots, so their minimums are normally set so that a military pilot who has just finished his initial obligation will typically meet those mins. A fighter pilot will get 1000-2000, a non-fighter type probably several thousand more.

In a civilian flight training program you will spend $50-150K and get 200-280 hours. You will then spend ten years working in bad to marginal conditions, for very little pay building several thousand more hours before you get to the same major airline job in the end.

Either way, you are going to spend ten years getting there. Military pay and bennies are MUCH better aong the way, but you have to go to work when and where they tell you to.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with using the military as a path to the airlines...you just have to 100% committed to doing the military service while you are in. It will be more work then the civilian route.

Before you pack up and move to Daytona Beach or Prescott, let me throw my two cents in. At 18, a ten year commitment seems like forever, but when you're in your early 30s it'll seem like nothing. I knew plenty of guys who went into military aviation to with the intent of becoming airline pilots or avoiding having to carry a gun and sleep in the jungles of SE Asia, only to decide military aviation is where they wanted to stay.

I've flown with lots of civilian only pilots who wished they had flown in the military, but never the reverse. Serving your country will probably be the second most important thing in your life, right behind being a parent.

That's not to say military service is all wine and roses. Military flight school will probably be the most difficult thing you do in your life, and there's no guarantee you'll get a pilot slot in the first place.

The people you associate with in the military will be a cut above those in civilian life. having said that, the military will break your heart...repeatedly. You will watch the finest people you know get passed over for promotion or command, and you will see butt kissers and backstabbers step on others while climbing the ladder. You will be disappointed with aircraft assignments, duty assignments, and a myriad of other issues. You'll serve under great officers and buffoons. You'll come to realize the military is a bureaucracy first, and defender of the nation second. IOW, the ideals don't live up to the reality. However, when it's all over, you'll realize, by and large, you'll never work with people with as much integrity or sense of purpose again in your life. That's the final way the military breaks you heart.

From a practical standpoint, you probably won't get your first choice of aircraft. You're AF ROTC, so I won't talk about helos in the Navy (about 1/3) or Marines (about 2/3). If you go fixed wing, you can leave the service confident you'll eventually get an airline gig. The reserves are an excellent way to supplement you income the first few years after leaving AD, a great plan B during strike, furlough, or while job hunting, and guaranteed retirement benefits when you turn 60.

Long story short...just because you're not positive about the military doesn't mean it's not for you. I'd hate to go through life wondering "what if..." Most of the (relatively small) regrets in my life are because of things I didn't try, not because of things I did try.

Mine....

You seem like you are at least researching your idea of what you want to do. Which is by far going to give you a lot of opinions and ideas that you may not have come up with yourself. You really need to think about what you want out of an aviation career. Do want to be civilian trained or both or all military trained??? Now, I did both and you too can have the opportunity to take advantage of you career path and build great experiences along the way. You are in a postion were you can only benefit. I urge you to look over every possible scenario and situation, but remember what you do now will affect the next several years of your life! There will always be pros and cons to be looked at and some differ person to person. I would recommend that you check out civilian based flight training 141 schools that offer ROTC... not just ERAU, check out all before deciding! Then see what 4 year degree programs and if you can get ROTC to flip the majority of the bill. Then after accomplishing your four years and ROTC. Then its off the IFT/MFS/UPT then MWS schooling. If you choose Air Force plan on two years plus for pilot training and follow on training plus ten year obligation. no worries time flies. Now there is ways while in ROTC to find a guard/reserve job..rare but happens that you can go get into instead of active duty(whole different coversation)! But if you go this route you will be way more experienced at UPT then the 25 hour guys coming only from IFS. This will help you succeed in training and help you benefit by only assiting you in better picks at airframes that might be available. You will still be low enough time not to hurt your military training do to bad habits, versus guys with a little training. You will have one up and be able to zone in more on what important in the early stages of training rather than trying to learn the basics that you would have already learned in civilian training.
There is only one regret that I have when it comes to training and that is I didn't know about ROTC until about my junior year...plus my school didn't offer it.... So take advantage of free education and get the best of both worlds...! Plus, the aviation community is small you will have the opportunity to meet more people and start building a network of contacts civilian and military for your future aviation career!

Just like civilian employment.

Well stated