Eglin: F-35 announcement coming soon
 

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'The way ahead' | air, decision, conference - News - Northwest Florida Daily News
Watch your 6.

I recently heard the F-35 failed enviromental testing at Eglin Air Force Base and will be going somewhere else.

Man, Eglin has changed. I went to elementary school on base at the entrance to the 33rd TAC wing. Back then the F-4 was the plane of the day and those things were so loud that they rattled the windows and shook the walls in the school. If they weren't billowing smoke, it only menat they weren't started.

Now jets have to under go (and pass) enironmental testing? Sheeesh, I'm old.

True about Eglin.....but at the same time if I remember right - the F-35 is noiser than any of our current (or former) aircraft! I'm sure that info is out there on the net.......but I'm too lazy to look it up and would rather rely on old memory :o

USMCFLYR

There are a lot of issues at hand. The City of Valp is protesting the F35 due to "noise pollution" (all the yankees that moved down to their retirement homes and are ****ed that airplanes have the nerve to fly overhead).
So..the AF designed an ILS to RWY 12. That ILS will close down the ENTIRE Western range. Neither AFSOC nor the Test Wing will have a range when the F35 is flying. The AF recently requested information on this AFTER they designed/TERPS and approved the new approach..
I don't think this is a done deal.
My $.02? Send the F35s to Canon........all the room they need to play.

I know I will get hell for this, but, I think the F-35 is a huge waste of dollars. We don't need it. We have the yet to be shotdown F-15 with the new radars and the F-22.

Our UAV force is now dropping bombs more than our fighters / bombers.

Why do we need this?

But, besides my controversial points, why couldn't the USAF develop an approach similar to a circling approach but with a descending turn in it? (something similar to the Hong Kong approach at Kaitai (spelling)?) I would hope that the new F-35 will have more avionics in it than the normal fighter tacan and ILS.

-Fatty

What design factor introduced to this jet makes it so incredibly loud? I've heard the 15's and 18's rumbling around STL and can't imagine something being even louder. Guess I'll find out at an A&M game they always seem to bring the new toys there for a fly-by every once in a while.

Why not just move them out to the desert and run around there for the trials?

This isn't necessarily the trial phase. Eglin will be where the first training squadrons are set-up.

USMCFLYR

Well...one point is any flight done in the STVOL/VTOL world. It is llike all of the jet noise with the noise passing quickly by. This is one reason the Harriers have always been considered very noisey! Ever hear them at the airshows when they are doing the hovering demos? WOW! It is also just part of the decibal range they are operating in too. I heard something about deck crews having to have new hearing and BODY protection on the flight decks because the vibrations were damaging people's internals! :eek:

USMCFLYR

I used to think the same thing...until I heard about the F-15's breaking in half and full of airframe cracks, and the expected airframe life of the F-22--not good.

I think the F-35 is valid but only for the Air Force. They should do away with the VSTOL version and the Navy/Marine Corps use Super Hornets.

I had the privelage/misfortune of driving underneath a Harrier at about 150ft landing at BTL for an airshow with my sunroof open.... let's just say that my ears were ringing about twice as long as they were after the Family Values Tour 98.... and that was a huge difference in exposure time....

So why is the F-35 only valid for the Air Force? I will agree that VSTOL is not needed, however the USMC is not and will not buy Superhornets so, they need the aircraft. Why isn't it a valid or viable platform for the Navy? F-35 brings a lot of capability to the table that isn't resident in E/F. To say this airplane has no use for Naval Aviation is really saying that Naval Aviation doesn't belong in the fight after E/F.

If the city gets their way - the approach will keep the F35 from flying overhead...that will shut down AFSOC and the Test Wing. There go a hell of a lot of jobs.
That or the F35 schoolhouse...or just DEAL with the noise??!?! It's one or the other. I am thinking this isn't a done deal yet. I have a little info on these issues since I have worked this.

Ok, so lets buy more of F-15s and F-16s. They're much cheaper and still viable. Yes, they aren't the newest and badest, but they sure would save us a lot of cash we don't have.

Is there anyone who truly believes the F-35 program stands a chance given the current economic climate?

Our country is broke and with record deficits and national debt, I can't imagine the O admin would go for this.

-Fatty

Agreed....it is doubtful a done deal as many thing keep changing on a daily basis - and not just for the future F-35 program!

USMCFLYR

The Locals around Eglin are just wussies... Loud is working the Ramp at RAF Lakenheath during the late 80s early 90s F-111s has to be the loudest aircraft ever developed... up till then I didnt think than anything was Louder than the F-4G.. oh how I miss Spangdahlem...

First of all there are many things F-22 and F-35 bring to the table that Eagles/Vipers/Hornets don't, there's reason #1. Reason #2, why support cuts for a program that already has so much invested, what you're collectively saying is, yep we can write off the billions already spent, and shift that money to new spending? Are you serious? I suppose you're a proponent of cutting out carriers as well just because they are the single biggest line item in the DoD's budget?

Let me ask you this. What cost benefit(long term) is gained by cutting F-35 at this juncture? Will this platform not be needed at some point down the road, only at a much higher price? What do you say to all the countries who have paid billions for portions of JSF as their platform of the future? Thanks for playing/paying, but we're done with it.? This platform is not just going to be utilized by the US as F-22 is.

Noise? At SJAFB with F-4's and Buffs, JET NOISE was (and IS) the SOUND OF FREEDOM!!

I'm very serious and don't go off the deep-end by making suggestions on what I may or may not believe (ref. carriers).

I think my point was valid. UAVs are the wave of the future and pilot-less aircraft bring more to the table than manned ones. As a pilot, I don't like it, but it is the future.

We also need to look at what other countries know. Technology wise, their fighters can't hang. However, when they throw mass numbers of old cheap technology in the air, even the F-22 is a sitting duck.

We need to start looking at our total force and deciding where the money is best spent. The previous USAF administration sold people, parts, and planes to buy the F-22. Now we we realizing just how destructive those cuts have become.

Ironically, we still don't have a tanker replacement for the KC135s and our KC10s have just as much flying time as the KC135s. And how many of our big airplanes are GATMS compliant? The FAA will probably give us an exception to operate, but, I wouldn't hold your breath on ICAO.

These are just a handful of big issues with even bigger pricetags that have been put on the back burner while we sold out for the F-22.

-Fatty

Fatty,

No deep end implied with the carrier comment, was simply an example to your argument that's all. No insult intended whatsoever.

Your argument for unmanned aircraft is very valid, however, in terms of what F-22 and JSF bring to the table, I challenge you to program an aircraft or a dude behind a console to be able to make the real time decisions necessary or more importantly maneuver his airplane in such a way to save it if needed during an engagement or an intercept. Best served for a discussion elsewhere and not on this board. It is what it is.

The previous USAF leadership did not sell out on their own but the number of aircraft they wanted was severely cut on line item cuts to a budget. To save what they could, yes cuts were made. The tanker buy is an apple in comparison to an orange with a whole bunch of other challenges. Certainly you're more well versed to the status of the tanker community. I'm here to tell you that the strike fighter shortfall is real and pending and no UCAV or UAV program is going to fix that shortfall. I would venture to say that that shortfall is being felt across the board for the USAF as well.
As long as the mission requires air supremecy the need for platforms like F-22 and JSF will continue to exist.

Valid points, no offense taken, and just you know, this isn't a "tanker guy jealous because the fighter guys are getting new toys." I enjoy having debate like this.

I agree there are short comings with UAVs. If we already have the F-22 for Air Supremacy, why do we need the F-35? Does the F-22 suck? Are there shortcomings (don't discuss this here obviously)? And if is so, why are there?

If we are buying the F-35 to be a fighter (air-to-air), but we are going to employ it as a bomber, I think that is a mistake. 99% of the fighters I've refueled (F-14, F-15, F-16, F-117) were employed to be a bomber, but, the air-to-air capability was there.

For the record, I hate UAVs. I hate the thought of our machines fighting the enemy. I just don't think it is ethical. But then again, our enemies today don't seem to want to play by the rules.

-Fatty

Air supremecy is just one of those items that F-22 and F-35 bring to the table. However when I say air supremecy, I don't just mean the ability to fly around at will without being shot at from an air to air threat. So why JSF, because it's cheaper per copy(relatively speaking) and it has a very robust air to ground capability as well that necessarily isn't captured with F-22. Can the Raptor perform that mission? Sure, but in a limited role. It's the same reason we have or had at one time 6 different airplanes(A-6, A-10, F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18) to do arguably the same mission, dropping bombs.

I don't discount the spending required to maintain or sustain these programs, nor do I support robbing from Peter to pay Paul at the expense of degrading another community's mission but at some point the food fight for $$ has to be won and in the case of JSF with the international support and funding it has, that will win out IMHO.

I don't mean to poke my nose into a conversation where I have no credentials... and this is just an outsider observation:
Our primary focus is non-state groups like various terrorist and insurgents. Our military has put a lot of attention (and rightly so) into that particular threat (i.e. UAV). There is, however, states with growing power. The African Union, headed by Muammar Kadhafi... and Mr. Putin of Russia who has enormous support of the Russian people. These states growing combined with a growing demand for oil, etc.... could possibly summon the need for semi-conventional war-fighting aircraft. I would suspect that insurgency will dwindle down as larger states come to power (i.e. kind of an inverse of Iraq).
I personally think the JSF is not exactly the best designed fighter, however the lower cost per unit will hopefully weigh against the quantity threat of these states coming to power. Just from a tactical perspective... wouldn't it seem like UAVs right now wouldn't last long against a well designed semi-modern air defense net from a larger state?

You are absolutely right about one thing in your post Ryan and that is that you don't plan for the current war - but the one looming over the horizon. I doubt that you will ever see a decrease in the near future of the asymmetrical warfare though; as more and more non-state actors can engage in this type of combat than ever before and there is no reason to believe that with state support that this will decrease. The fact is that with the collaspe of the Soviet Union and the 'Eastern Bloc' that many thought the time of more conventional (or semi-conventional as you say) warfare might have been a thing of the past. This thought process ignores current state actors like North Korea, Iran, India, Pakistan, a reemergent Russia, and China which some continue to grow in influence.
I'm not sure why you don't think that the F-35 is a well designed fighter or where you are drawing these conclusions from; but it will be a leap of technology above anything that we currently have and I would expect some very nice capabilities to come from this aircraft in both the A/A and A/G roles; although it is a UGLY duckling in my humble opinion!

USMCFLYR

Well sir,
It isn't that the F-35 is not well-designed... I believe it isn't the best designed fighter. However you are certainly right in that it is improved over existing technology. It would just seem that there will be a lot of mx problems to come.... but hopefully that won't be the case. As far as asymmetrical warfare decreasing...there are many, many different possible outcomes for that... and I'm certainly not the expert.

I don't know about the mx issues either - but I'll agree with you that every time I see that rear part of the engine rotating on the STVOL version I get a chill up my spine wondering how many pieces have to work perfect for that complicated machinery to operate as designed! Well...I don't worry about for myself but for the future aviators to come :)

USMCFLYR

What testing? At the McKinley Climatic Hangar or with the locals?

Have been in the Climatic Hangar a few times.. wow.. what a facility. We went in during a 95F summer day and they were doing arctic testing with temps below zero.. slight shock for us.

Dual Role
 

I would submit that in a fighter-bomber role, the A/C needs to be able to be an air-to-air fighter all the way into the target, drop its bombs and be an air-to-air fighter all the way back home. Just because it is not designed to be an Air Dominance machine, it still has to be able to fight its way in and out.

I agree with what somebody said above.... break out the F-16 and F-15 assembly lines.... re-engine with effecient engines.. new avionics and radars.... Christ these were ( perhaps with some argument ) the best fighters around......

Hell I can still remember my ROTC ( yes I was a ROTC puke ) summer camp in 83 at Bergstrom. Man there was nothing better than those weeks spent there listening to a whole wing of RF-4's flying every day...

Or like Blkflyer said... the F-111's at Lakenheath or the Blackbirds at Mildenhall.... I still think today... when I smell burning JP-4 I get the biggest $hit eating grin on my face.......

Don't get me wrong...I love my F-16, but I don't want to try to cross the taiwan straits in it. If I have to cross those straits, I want to do it at night and in a stealthy jet like an F-22 or an F-35. All those "hordes" of low tech teenager migs might launch, but they will never find me. It really is that big of a difference. If we sent F-16s and F-15s into that threat array our attrition rate would be outrageous.

The piece you guys need to understand is what a gamechanger stealth technology is. With a modern air defense system, if you aren't stealthy, you aren't going. None of the current uav's can survive in that enviornment either.