The way it was, Miramar circa 60's F-8/F-4
 

A good read, got it from a thread over at airwarriors:

The Way We Were « Neptunus Lex

There were two types of fighters at Miramar in 1966—F-8 Crusaders and F-4 Phantoms. The two communities could not have been more different. The F-8 had been developed and refined as an air superiority fighter. For close aerial combat over Vietnam, its AIM-9D Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles allowed the pilot to point and shoot, while keeping his head on a swivel. If the dog-fight became close combat, inside the minimum Sidewinder range, the F-8 could use its four 20mm cannon on the MIG.
“Pirate” Nichols, an experienced driver in the Red Lightnings’ sister squadron (VF-191), had the only MIG engagement in CAG-19, and dispatched a MIG-17 with his guns after wounding the bogey with a Sidewinder shot.
The Navy F-4, on the other hand, was procured according to specifications of pointy-heads in the Pentagon to be a pure Fleet interceptor, using missiles only. It had no guns. It had two engines that left highly visible smoke trails, and a Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) in the back seat to run the radar. In Vietnam, this meant that it could not be as effective as the F-8 in close-range dog-fighting. In spite of these problems, LT “Duke” Cunningham and his back-seater, Willie Driscoll, scored five MIG kills while flying an F-4 to become the only Navy “aces” (5 or more kills) of the Vietnam War.

The differences in design of these aircraft caused their pilots to be trained and think differently. In one incident, an F-4 pilot accidentally shot down his wingman with a missile, mistaking him for a MIG. The F-4s incurred so many losses by the MIGs that the Navy created ‘Top Gun’ (ed: TOPGUN) to address these deficiencies. Having a crew member in the back seat also tended to overly “civilize” the flying of many F-4 pilots, while the F-8 pilot only had to worry about himself and could fly his aircraft with wild abandon. Meanwhile, the F-8 amassed the highest overall kill ratio against the MIGs. The essential difference between the two fighter communities was that the F-8 pilots were trained as airborne predators, while the F-4 crews largely viewed themselves as Fleet interceptor pilots.
True to form, the Red Lightnings delighted in making the F-4 crews feel inadequate by mercilessly hunting them on almost every flight. The area west of San Diego, between San Clemente Island and the coast, became “MIG alley,” infested with bogeys waiting to jump the unwary driver. While the Navy hierarchy had strict policies against “unauthorized ACM” (Air Combat Maneuvering –aka: dog fighting), they knew very well what was going on offshore, and wisely looked the other way. The admirals felt it was better for the pilots to get embarrassed around San Diego than killed by a MIG in Vietnam. So far, no aircraft accidents had been attributed to the “unauthorized” ACM, so it continued. Commodore “Swede” Vejtasa, Commander Fleet Air Miramar, was a double “ace” from WWII, and the recipient of three Navy Crosses, the Legion of Merit, and the Bronze Star. He understood the need for this realistic training and quietly condoned it. (ed. Must’ve been good to have vets like that in charge.)
The Red Lightnings took this wild-West practice to a new level, as usual. Every Friday, they would notify all Miramar ready rooms that they would be waiting for all challengers over the water near the 270 deg. radial from Miramar at 40 miles, which became known as “the OK Corral.” At 1400, the area went “hot,” and a giant “fur ball” of turning, twisting fighters would develop. It was not uncommon to see 30 or more aircraft in a single battle. When the F-4 pilots showed up, they would try to simulate the use of their Sparrow head-on radar missiles, quite useless in a “fur ball.” This usually resulted in the Red Lightnings pouncing on the F-4s as they decelerated and tried unsuccessfully to turn with the F-8s. Using gun cameras, the Red Lightnings acquired a huge inventory of documented F-4 “shoot downs.” On one occasion, I played about fifty of these film clips at Friday Happy Hour at the O’Club, resulting in a near riot and lots of broken glass.
There was also vicious competition among the Miramar F-8 squadrons. Commodore Vejtasa issued an annual award to the best F-8 squadron at Miramar. With this award came a coveted trophy, known as ‘The Mutha’ Trophy. It was a glass-encased Japanese animal figure, Tanuki, with a hideous face and eyes that constantly flashed. At her side, a baby sported an oversized set of testicles.
The Red Lightnings typically won this trophy each year, which became a source of intense envy and aggravation among the other F-8 squadrons. Finally, pilots from one of the other squadrons broke into the Red Lightnings’ ready room one night and stole ‘The Mutha’ Trophy. The Skipper immediately ordered a counter-strike to rescue ‘Mutha’ from the evil-doers.
On a Saturday afternoon, Buzzard, Gator and I executed a forced-entry into the offending squadron’s spaces, and after forcibly subduing the watch officer, left with ‘Mutha’. She was returned to her proper shrine in our ready room, and was locked in a large safe. She seemed happy to be home. Gator got a bloody nose, but the mission was a success. Sometimes you have to take casualties. (ed. The trophy still exists and is the subject of much friendly competition and outright larceny.)
One morning, Maggot told me that he was taking me on a sight-seeing tour of the Grand Canyon. We manned our aircraft and flew east to the Tuba City area, and started a run inside the canyon, heading back toward Las Vegas and Hoover Dam. The canyon became so narrow that Maggot had me fly directly behind him about 200′ in “trail” so that I could instantly match his turns. Soon the breathtaking canyon walls loomed high above us on either side as we zoomed along at 350 kts. It was great fun—until Maggot took a wrong turn, and flew up a box canyon. Suddenly the canyon stopped, and a vertical wall was directly ahead. “Burner now!” he yelled and pulled straight up. I thought, ‘what a lousy way to die.’
The F-8’s power saved us. We barely made the top of the canyon wall, and rolled inverted to float the nose over the rim, nibbling on a stall. Still in after-burner, we staggered over some horses and campers at the canyon rim as we struggled to keep the birds flying. It must have been exciting for the civilian sightseers. After we recovered, Maggot dove right back down into the main canyon again, determined to reach Hoover Dam. As we climbed out over the dam, I realized my fuel was dangerously low. We arrived at Miramar and my bird had about five minutes of fuel remaining. When I complained to Maggot, he replied, “No sweat. Fuel left after a flight is wasted. By the way, did you see the cables?” It seems that there were about 26 large power cables suspended from rim to rim of the canyon in various locations. I never saw them, because we were flying below them.
It was now time for a change of squadron command. Bob Chew (’48) handed the con over to his outstanding XO, Bill Conklin. Conklin was another superlative aviator, with heavy Korean War experience. He also was a wonderful officer and leader. He had flown with the Royal Navy flight demonstration team on an exchange tour, and loved formation aerobatics. There was only one problem with this handsome dude—he was 40 years old, and his eyes were bad. He had been secretly wearing glasses when he flew.
The squadron became concerned about his distance vision, and decided (without his knowledge) that he needed a “seeing-eye dog.” A confidential survey was taken to determine who had the best eyes. Unfortunately, that was me, which made me the new Skipper’s permanent wingman. This was an honor I did not really want, because this guy felt it was his duty to always be on the most dangerous mission. No guts, no glory.
His pet project was the squadron “air show” team. Leading a four-plane diamond, he put Buzzard on his left wing, me on his right wing, and Maggot in the slot. On one occasion, the Skipper led a very low barrel roll over the carrier “to boost the troops’ morale” and bottomed out with poor Maggot skimming the waves and screaming on his radio. His reply to Maggot was “Make sure your tail is black from my exhaust, or you are obviously not in position.” Wow!
The squadron deployed to MCAS Yuma for its weapons training during that summer. I had become friends with Porky and Buzzard, both of whom were great pilots and would have been good candidates for Pappy Boyington’s Black Sheep Squadron. They were incorrigible products of the old Naval Aviation Cadet program, and neither Chew nor Conklin found it worth the effort to reform them. Besides, they produced “the numbers” when flying, and in the Red Lightning squadron, that was all that mattered. For these two, every day was a new opportunity, as Buzzard would say, “to be VSH [Very $hit Hot].” Two of Buzzard’s favorite quotes were “Better to bust your ass than look bad around the ship,” and “I have never made an approach so bad that I couldn’t salvage it.” And Buzzard was our squadron LSO!

To be continued...

...continued

Across the Arizona border from Yuma was a small California town, Winterhaven. It sported some sleazy bars and shady characters that liked to take advantage of the enlisted servicemen from MCAS Yuma. Buzzard and Porky learned that some Sailors and Marines had been beaten up by locals at one particular bar, and vowed to administer some pay-back.
One night, with me in tow, they crossed into Winterhaven and located the bar. After shutting down the bar’s electrical power, they tossed some orange smoke flares into the dark bar, causing the burly patrons to vacate the bar in a panic. As we escaped back to the base, Buzzard remarked, “Another successful mission. VSH!” Such was life in the Red Lightnings.
Porky was not only a great pilot, he was an engineering genius. One of his creations was an analog carrier launch-weight computer, which he built out of spare parts from our avionics shop. During cruise, it was used by the ready room Duty Officer to derive each aircraft’s launch weight for the catapult settings, including any combination of ordnance or fuel. He offered its design to the Navy, but it was rejected as “unnecessary.” The squadron used it anyway.
As we prepared to go on deployment to Vietnam, the staterooms were assigned by the Air Wing, with Porky and Buzzard as roommates. They traveled to North Island whereTiconderoga was docked and looked at their assigned room with disapproval. It needed major upgrading.
Porky loaded up his tools, and he and Buzzard visited the San Diego naval base, where they found an old cruiser being readied for the mothball fleet. Wearing hardhats and posing as “sand crabs” [civilian workers], they went aboard and checked out the cruiser’s Flag spaces. The admiral’s cabin had a beautiful teakwood door in immaculate condition. Porky dismantled it, and they took it back to North Island and installed it on their new stateroom. He then added matching wood paneling to the bulkheads, floor tile, and a marble vanity in place of the prison-like metal wash basin. They installed stereo speakers, along with recessed lighting and a built-in refrigerator. It was a cabin fit for a VIP. But it still lacked one thing — air conditioning. These old ships only had minimal air conditioning, and you had to be senior to get this amenity.
Porky bought a window-style air conditioner at Sears, and installed it. He tapped into a fuse box for power, and with some of the ship’s ducting, vented the hot air into the junior officer bunkroom down the passageway that was inhabited by a group of ship’s officers (”Black Shoes”). It must have been very hot in there, but the poor Black Shoes never caught on.
Porky had a girlfriend in Chula Vista, with whom he had a constantly stormy relationship. She had strayed off the reservation, and was seeing a helicopter pilot from North Island, a double insult. Porky learned that the helo driver was going to do a low fly-over at the woman’s house to impress her. With blood in his eyes, Porky talked the maintenance Chief into giving him an F-8 after lunch, and blasted off on a search-and-destroy mission. After orbiting over south San Diego Bay for a few minutes, he spotted a Navy SH-3 helo crossing the Bay from North Island. He circled overhead, and watched as the ungainly craft headed for Chula Vista.
Porky had made illegal low passes over the woman’s house before, and knew its exact location. As expected, the SH-3 began to hover over her house at about 200′. Porky added power and circled toward this interloper. Coming from behind the helo at about 400 kts, he dove to 100′ and rolled inverted, flying between the girl friend’s roof and the stationary helo. As he passed the helo, he hit afterburner and rolled upright, climbing vertically. The helo pilots nearly lost control of their machine, and terrified, headed at maximum speed back to North Island. The girlfriend, standing in her front yard, was so impressed that she dumped the helo pilot and reunited with Porky. Love conquers all.

Interesting read! I've always wondered why the Navy didn't give much more thought to the XF8U-3, it seemed superior in almost every way to the F-4 except the workload divided among an extra person.

So you are proposing that a two-seat aircraft makes for a superior fighter? ;)

USMCFLYR

ha.. I guess that was just the Navy's justification circa late 50s, early 60s technology. Accoridng to an internet source, NASA test pilots flying the XF8U-3 at NAS Patuxent used to 'routinely' beat F-4s in 'unauthorized ACM'.

about the XF8U from the Tailhook Association:
Tailhook Daily Briefing: Flightdeck Friday - XF8U-3 Crusader III

That NASA pilot may have simple been a **** hot F-8 driver who could have beat your standard F-4 driver in just about anything. I've heard great things about the XF8U-3 however.

Awesome read, doesn't matter how much of it is true or not ;)

USMCFLYR and I discussed this...it's that old fish story, the fish gets larger each and every time the story is told :D Agreed, still makes for good reading.

Edited for clarification;

I'm sure there's going to be opinions on this, but I'm just curious. In a pure turning post merge engagement just using the gun, which airplane was better, the original F8 or the F4?

I know there's a ton of factors that can skew it, like pilot training/proficiency etc, but which airplane could out turn the other?

Where there differences like at which altitude the engagement that might make one batter at lower altitudes and the other better at higher ones, etc?

I'm anxious to hear the answers/views of those questions as well. It was my understanding that the F-8 was the last fighter designed around a gun as its primary weapon and it was designed to use that in a turning fight... while on the other hand the F-4 was designed around the missle. Whether that is completely accurate I'm not sure.... it'd be interesting to hear about it from those that flew each. I suppose that an orginal F-8 would be better for a close, guns only fight than an orginal F-4... because I don't think the orginal F-4s had guns.

Point defense fighter
 

Back in the '60s, I was at an airshow and asked a fighter pilot what was the best-performing "dogfighter" in the world. His surprising opinion: the English Electric Lightning. Anybody fly against one of those?

English Electric Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Was he a Lightning pilot? :D

USMCFLYR

What a great story.

Interestingly, was just watching this video the other day; ironic. Thought I would share...


YouTube - Vought F-8 Crusader vs. F-4 Phantom II

they were the dream fighters of my era when I was a kid, if I had the eyes I would have loved to have flown the F4 for the Corps,(I was born too late for the F8),totally respect,and admire,all military aviators,privately,not publicly,because I'm a grunt,and have standards to maintain !

The F-4 grew out of an offering from McDonnell for a Super Demon. The Demon was like many 50s fighter limited by its engine. Some early Demons were in fact never flown but loaded on barges and floated down the Mississippi out of St Louis to mechanics schools. Later Demons had better engines but the plane was short-lived in service. McDonnell began work on a single seat twin engine Super Demon that evolved into the F-4. The Super Demon had guns. The Phantom did not. In fact, except for gun pods, the gun didn't show up on the F-4 until the E.

The Demon...
http://www.pimaair.org/images/collec..._MG_1236_a.jpg

Note the extended empennage and horizontal slabs on the Demon with the exhaust beneath.. similar to the F-4.

The Super Demon...http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JGRd43QLug...400/F3H-Ga.jpg

The English referred to it as the "Frightening". It was fast and it
climbed like a banshee but it was not especially noted as a turn
and burn fighter. It was an interceptor.

The Lightning, like the Jaguar, is one of the few airplanes
I have ever seen where fuel tanks and missiles were placed
on stations on top of the wing
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../6/0826625.jpg

The Lighting also used an unusual over-under engine config.

FWIW, there is a fellow in Capetown who has 2 Lightnings
along with a Bucaneer and an F-4 that he flies. Also, there
is a group in Mississippi that is restoring a Lightning to flight
status. Nice machine.

The F-8 was and still is the last of the gun fighters. No other aircraft hence has been designed to be pure air superiority fighter like the F-8. (Not even the F-15...I know I am going to catch hell for that comment) The F-4 was designed with the "New-Thinking" of the time that guns we obsolete and that missiles are all that would be needed hence no gun and the its bias toward being a multi role airframe like everything. They were wrong, that is why later models carried a gun pod mounted on the belly of the aircraft. The F-8 would turn tighter, pull more g's, had a truer sight picture and was designed to help the pilot get on the guns fast and stay in the fight. A real pilots aircraft that was also tough as nails. I would take the F-8 in the hands of a skilled pilot anytime. The F-4 was ugly, not very stable but had 2 powerful GE engines that made the aircraft what it is. If you look at the way the wings slant up and the horizontal stabilizerscant down, those were all an effort to make the ugly bird fly...The F-8 and F-4 are almost two different to com pair. As far as a true gunfighter the F-8 is it, not even the mighty F-14 (built for fleet defense and around the phoenix missile to shoot down Russian bears) can hold a candle to the F-8. Again the F-8 was designed to be a gun fighter pure and simple, not the multi role / multi purpose designs that have been the norm from Vietnam on. Just my opinion.

Maverick??? :D
It’s nice and nostalgic to give the F-8 a catchy moniker like the “Last of the Gun Fighters” (I know that’s not your name – it’s been around a while). It sounds cool, but it’s simply the result of a Navy fighter requirement put out during a period when air-to-air missiles were hardly off the drawing board. The F-8 was a day-VFR, carrier based fighter with a 20mm cannon as its primary weapon. The F-8 requirement came out about a year before the Sidewinder program actually received “program” status and significant funding. The AIM-9B wasn’t operational for 4 more years, therefore, it’s not like they really had a choice on ordnance with which to equip this new “wonder fighter”. So, that makes it the last fighter aircraft designed “to be a pure air superiority fighter”? Sorry – but that is pure BS. Also, by the time the F-8 actually entered combat, its weapons load included AIM-9 sidewinders (more on that later).

The F-15A was clearly designed as an air superiority fighter – I don’t know what else you could call it. The USAF fighter requirement for the FX design designated an air superiority fighter with capabilities to exceed anything in the Soviet inventory – specifically the new MiG-25 (which intel reports had mistakenly given far more capabilities than it actually possessed). If the fact that the F-15’s primary weapon was no longer the gun somehow takes it out of the air superiority category for you, you clearly have some kind of misplaced bias against fighters equipped with missiles. It was never designed as a multi-role aircraft as you seem to claim. The fact that its design was easily modified to become a successful multi-role fighter-bomber (F-15E) is more a testament to the quality of that design than some kind of a con in a pro/con list.

To somehow hold up the F-8 as superior to late 1960’s designs like the F-14 and F-15 simply because those aircraft came off the drawing board equipped with missiles is pretty myopic. It would have been laughable to design an air superiority aircraft in the late 1960’s without a complete compliment of air to air weapons. It’s equally laughable to call a fighter that has to get inside 2500 feet in lead pursuit of its target in order to employ its PRIMARY weapon an air superiority fighter in the same comparison with the F-15.

I do agree with you concerning the initial decision to omit a gun from the F-4 design. That was a big mistake and had significant ramifications in training, combat and pilot training initially. One point – USAF models of the F-4E actually carried the gun internally – so not all F-4s mounted the cannon on an external pod. At least future designers learned from that mistake – not another fighter in the US inventory has failed to have a cannon incorporated into its design.

“A real pilot’s aircraft that was also tough as nails” – …………. And the F-4 wasn’t? We’re talking about one of the most prolific, successful and combat proven fighter-bomber (mostly bomber) aircraft in the history of fighter aviation. You’re entitled to your opinion of the F-8, but you kind of need to acknowledge history too.

“I would take the F-8 in the hands of a skilled pilot anytime” – you’d take an F-8 to do what? Dogfight 1v1 in the “ok corral” off Mirimar? – okay great. Drop 18 Mk-82s on the Haiphong rail yards while carrying a full complement of air-to-air ordnance as well? Good luck with that.

You like the F-8 as a day/VFR gun only fighter. Should we really be surprised that you don’t prefer an aircraft like the F-4 which was never designed to be employed in that same day/VFR visual fighter role? Each aircraft has pro and cons and you seem to want to focus on the pros of the F-8 without acknowledging any cons. If I had to choose a fighter to go into actual combat with, starting BVR with ROE that allowed BVR shots, the F-8 would not be tops on my list (never mind the single engine thing – but that’s my personal bias). I’d take an F-4, F-14, F-15 – basically any fighter capable of long range BVR missile shots so I could start off the engagement with some offensive options. Personally, hoping I survive the initial BVR to visual engagement so I can eventually get into a phone booth with my knife between my teeth isn’t the way I like to start off an engagement. Perhaps the unique circumstances driving Vietnam ROE and early missile capability/problems made the F-8 the best choice for air to air in that arena. That probably would not have been the case during Desert Storm thanks to much more reliable weapons, EID capabilities and BVR shot opportunities. You’ll note the complete lack of gun kills during that conflict, the presence of all three fighters you seem to want to scoff at (F-4, F-14 and F-15) and the notable absence of your beloved F-8 due to its retirement more than 15 years earlier.

You want to talk about the training/attitudes and capabilities of Navy F-8 pilots compared to their compatriots in other airframes who were less focused on visual dogfight skills, I think I’ll be in your camp. That’s more of a pilot skills discussion than an aircraft capability discussion. I think much of the credit you want to bestow on the F-8 itself is probably more a testament to the training and skills of its pilots. What would have happened if you could have swapped circa 1968 Navy F-8 and F-4 pilots, allowing them to go at it in each other’s aircraft? Would the F-4 pilot with his “no gun – missiles are everything” mentality suddenly prevail in the mighty F-8? Or, is it more likely that the victor would be the better trained pilot with a better working knowledge of energy management, BFM and minimizing his aircraft’s weaknesses while maximizing its strengths? That really hasn’t changed whether we’re discussing an F-8 v F-4 fight or fast forward 40 years and discuss yesterday’s mission involving F-16s, F-15s or F-18s.

Finally, it’s kind of funny that in spite of its “Gun Fighter” name, only 21% (4 of 19) of the kills credited to the F-8 were accomplished using the gun. The rest were the result of AIM-9 shots.

“Gunfighter” in the “ok corral” for bragging rights in the bar Friday night – not so much in actual combat, eh?

You are correct in all your points. From a pilot skill prospective the F-8 was a hard aircraft to fly and required a higher degree of skill to pilot effectively in a dog fight. The F-4 is an outstanding aircraft on its own, and its long sales record and ongoing development proves that. My post was slanted by my nostalgic love for the F-8.

I don't what else to say..great points and a great read. Well Done!

Point; Counter-Point
 

Adler:

Bravo. Well-done.

Maverick:

I can't attest to the handling qualities of the F-8, which I also think is a fine aircraft. But I can tell you the Phantom's handling qualities took a lot of skill as well...which took more? I can't say.

I only flew the slatted airplanes (E and G) but "Stick force lightening" (Reversal of forces on the stick while pulling 'g') was pretty disconcerting my first 100 hours in the airplane. I thought "How do you maneuver this damn thing?" It had significant adverse yaw (non-slatted airplanes would spin at the drop of a hat, and all versions had to be rolled using only rudder at high AOA and speeds less than 200 knots). Cockpit vis was not so good.

I can attest that the Phantom made me a better pilot (than I might have been) because it was difficult to fly well.

I would argue that John Boyd and his Mafia produced two of the best fighters to bridge the guns vs. missiles design philosophy. Initially it was the F-15, which could shoot radar, heat, and guns, and fly up its own belly-button. Initially, the F-16 was almost a modern F-8, being a heat and gun fighter (and a stern-only AIM-9P fighter at that). However, with AMRAAM, AIM-9L/M/X and the inclusion of BVR EID equipment, you cover the full spectrum with an airplane that can fly up its own bung-hole.

But like Adler, I prefer two engines in combat.

Sadly, the "Gold-Plated Fighter" that Boyd detested has made its come-back, in both the F-22 and F-35.

III Corps:

I have a Phantom book that shows the pic you labelled a "Super Demon" but they claimed it was the prototype mockup for the Phantom. I would bet you are right, just wonder where you got the info.

Perhaps a bit, but Miramar had strippers show and perform into the mid to late 80's when I was there, just like Trader Jons did in Pensacola.
WestCoast Nav different than East Coast Navy. We have all been bred to be very PC now, but back then, had several IP's who had Vietnam experience. They were definitely very rough around the edges many of 'em regarding todays PC environment. Doesn't make them better or worse. Just a reflection of our history that produced fine combat aviators in our Navy/USMC and USAF brothers. The facts are: the skillsets and abilities that made a good combat aviator applied to F-8/F-4 and everything else; Scooters, Turkeys, Eagles,Lightnings, etc. It was a grand time to be a military aviator flying anything because it was a different era. This was a time that the airplane did not download and tell everyone exactly every thing that you did and at what time you did it and be on a screen beamed all around the world live. It wasn't a simpler or harder time, just different. 20 years from now, the youngsters will marvel at the stories of today, though for the life of me cannot conceive that I will be mightily impressed with the non combat stories.<bg>

Myself: Glad to be an 'average jet pilot' as I placed under my call sign, taken from one of my RAG IP's nametag on the green bag "Rude-Average Jet Pilot" it still makes me laugh.

Dogfighting, in and of itself, requires a high degree of pilot skill.
I visited the USS Midway last weekend. They jave a wonderful walking audio tour - very easy. Up on the flight deck on Cat 1 there is a F-8 positioned for the cat shot. When listneing to the audio tour it describes the airplane for a little bit and then offers up some pilot perspective on flying the F-8. This particular pilot describes flying the F-8 as one of the smoothest and easiest airplanes to fly - EXCEPT when landing aborad the boat! Then is was as squirrely as squirrely can be he says. I mean it is the only naval tactical aircraft ever bought where the WHOLE wing from end to end moves up and down right? :eek::D

USMCFLYR

I've heard plenty of stories from the day. Hell, as a mid, I got to experience in the Miramar O'club on a Wednesday, 89-90 timeframe. It was wild even then, obviously pre-Tailhook. My old boss flew with some of the Navy greats...Hoser and Snort come to mind. He was in a nugget when Snort was Ops-O of his first squadron. When we drink, he has great stories to tell. Love it :D

I take it you flew the F-8? Your post above makes sound as if you did....otherwise, you're stating stuff out of a book but making seem as if you know what you're talking about. Meaning, a been there done that sort of thing.

Went through Miramar from 1979-1983. Good times were had by all. NKX was a happening place. Both wednesday and friday afternoon began around 1500 at the O'club. 1400 if you were a real hard core drinker. Either way if you were a fighter pilot at any squadron you had better have had your pass at the O'club by 1600. If not your were just lame. Usually on a friday afternoon there would be so many airplanes in the pattern and coming into the break, F-14, F-4, F-8, E-2, A-4s, training command airplanes, along with guest from Luke and Hill. Even had F-104 from the German Luftwaffa arrive in the overhead. Often, so many planes that the tower could only say follow the guy ahead of you. Then all would meet at the club to watch Fawn Lebowitz and the girls dance while guys talked with there hands. Tailhook in the 80's were fantastic. I've gone back to Miramar once or twice while on a layover with my airline. Sad,,,,,,,,, but some great memories of a great time in Naval Aviation.

I hit the perfect storm there once.

Post TopGun the movie, Pre-Tailhook the debacle
Wednesday night
October 31, 1990 (Halloween!)

Not only did you have the regular Wednesday night talent - but in costume! Catwoman, belly dancers, beer wenches, Wonder Woman, etc....

OH MY!

USMCFLYR

I flew all models of the Crusader, except the photo bird. I also have a little time in the Phantom. A good Crusader pilot could take an equally good Phantom pilot most of the time in a true dogfight. Anyone that thinks that either one is the equal to the F15 is dreaming. The Crusader was a great bird with some killer (to the pilot) problems. I believe I am correct in stating that of the approximately 1200 built, at least 900 were destroyed, mostly by the guy flying it (I`m guilty on that point). A better flying machine was the Grumman F11F. It was worthless for a carrier plane . Had the J79 been available as was planned, that would have been a different story. A J65 was substituted, and it was short of fuel.Most were sent to the training command and to the Blue Angels. I flew them as a 22 year old cadet.

I don't know the numbers - but I did hear that they had more lost to carrier landings than any other airframe of the time - or possibly the greatest percentage of all (no source - just heard)

Wasn't the photo bird the fastest of the F-8s too? Most seem to be - I'm pretty sure it was true of the RF-4B too (old VMFP-3 piot told me this)

USMCFLYR

Not when I was flying F8`s. They did hold quite a bit more fuel. That`s why John Glenn used one in his record setting flight from California to the east coast. Alas, that plane didn`t make it to the Smithsonian, it was shot down in North Viet Nam. During my Crusader years (`60-`65) the F8E was the fastest. it was supposed to do 1.86 mach. I had a brand new one to 2.0 down near Yuma. I`ve been told that there was a lot of pitot error involved, but it was plenty fast enough for me. The canopy was almost too hot to touch. That was when I was young and foolish. Later, when the surviving fighter versions were pulled from service, the Vought folks replaced the tail sections of the Photo birds and the engines with parts from the F8E`s. I don`t know what the thrust ended up being, around 20,000 in burner, I think, so the photo birds would have been fairly fast.

RIAP -

The USS Midway in San Diego has a really nice F-8 ready room set up with lots of history. If you ever get the chance - you should give it a once through.

USMCFLYR

Just banging around the internet and I knew/know some guys who flew the Demon which as you may know, was like a lot of the 1950 era fighters.. very limited by its engine and the engine proposed did not come up to expectations. Also, an engine replacement required almost dismantling the airplane, not exactly user-friendly. When the J40 powered Demons came off the line, they performed SO BADLY that many were loaded on barges, shipped to maint training bases and NEVER flown. McDonnell changed to the J-71 engine, still not the best solution. Still not what McDonnell or the Navy wanted, came up with the F3H-3G or Super Demon F4H. There were different models, some single seat, some two seats. Proposals also included two J65 engines or the monster J79s. That is the picture you see and in some ways, they are correct in that in it was part of the evolution. Note that after wind tunnel testing, aero improvements included the dihedral and dogtooth wings as well as the horiz slabs with anhedral. It was, to say the least, a work in progress.

FWIW, McDonnell planned to call the airplane "Satan" which for some reason didn't impress a lot of people in DOD or Navy.

One site:
Welcome To the Warbirds Resource Group - Vietnam Conflict Aviation Resource Center

Grumman did build a two 'Super Tigers" with the J-79 engine but the Navy chose not to buy it so it never went into production. IT was in competition with the -104 for a number of countries including Germany, Italy, Belgium and Holland. They bought the -104. Grumman also proposed the Super Tiger to Canada and Japan. Again, no sale. The program folded.

One crashed in tests. The other reportedly is at the Navy Armaments Museum at China Lake.

http://www.air-and-space.com/2002062...20side%20l.jpg

The Super Tiger flew in 1956, went to M1.44 with the 'small' J79. Later with a uprated J-789, it bumped up to M2.04 and set an altitude record.

It seems everyone was building a "SUPER" something including the BIG SHARK Super Crusader.