Non-vol to the Global Hawk
 

First off, let me say that none of this post is a jab at the UAV community, just me venting after a rather shocking day.

Today I got the "great" news that I'd be leaving my beloved Fred and heading off to the Global Hawk this summer. Rant, engage....

I'm ****ed, furious, angry, upset, shocked, numb about the news that in a few months, I'll no longer be flying a "real airplane." It's all I ever wanted to do was fly jets and now the AF has taken that away from me. I'm also getting this assignment (at 2 years 8 months) while guys with 5 years are still getting extended. FML

Rant....over

'breath, just breath'

Are there any GH bubbas out there that can give me an idea of what I'm getting into? QOL, what the job entails, deployments, office life, etc?

I'm going to do the right thing and try to be positive about this situation. Again, I want to make sure that I'm not offending any of the UAV folks out there, and am just dealing with this shocking news.

Any info would be great and thanks in advance!

Cheers

Not a GH guy, but two things:

1. The pilots who were at 5 years vs you and who were extended. Would this be because they're IPs and you aren't? i.e. You're young enough in your career that you are a more appropriate selection for the assignment? Not that it makes any difference; if you got hit with it you got it, but I am curious.

2. Look at the bright side: GH = Beale? Much better than Clovis (with a pred).:rolleyes:

1. I'm on my second tour. Did a 3 year tour in C-21s and then got to C-5s in May 07. I am not an IP (even after almost 3 years in Fred) and there are plenty of folks that are not IPs and did not get chosen for this "choice" deal.

2. SO TRUE!!! I actually had a choice and it was a no brainer :D

The MC-12 should be an option still, especially at Beale.

You can't say that the writing hasn't been on the wall with the UAV's. It doesn't sound like your situation is especially uncommon these days.

I'd say the good thing about the GH is probably the lifestyle, but I'd be speaking w/o really knowing. It just seems like the GH isn't under as much pressure as the pred.

The other good thing is your future opportunities in the AF as well as the civilian side. Its a growing business and your in still relatively early.

Open up AMS and look at your assignment possibilites with UAV experience. The list is actually pretty nice if you can live without being in the air for awhile.

Not trying to be confrontational. But, the fact that you're not an IP and you are in a second operational tour, makes me give you the hairy eyeball.

Why were you not an IP? I don't know the current thinking that's going around on the current promotion boards, but, what if you don't make IP on a MWS before your Majors board? Do they even have IPs for GHs? I guess they do, but are they on the same level as a C-5 IP?

And it is very true what they say, the needs of the chair force come first.

You are a victim of the same opinion expressed in your rant. Instead of USAF leadership accepting the fact that they have to send pilots to the GH, Pred, or Reaper and ensuring that they do it right and equitably (and ensuring that those who get sent get back to cockpits in a timely manner just like those going to white jets), they sacrifice bodies to the machine and send them to the UAV to never return to the cockpit.

There is nothing guaranteeing that you stay a C-5 pilot, as you said, you were C-21 and would probably accept that the USAF would need you in a T-6 or T-1 or even in a command post. You are a rated aviator and you are liable to get any assignment where a rated aviator is required (and, yes, flying an asset that is bigger and heavier than your previous C-21 through controlled airspace still requires a rated aviator). The unfortunate thing is that any of the above options would eventually lead you back to a cockpit.

There is no major uprising because everyone is content to sit quietly in the corner and watch the USAF throw flying experience away and ruin careers as long as it isn't their career that is being sacrificed.

MC-12 will be an option, at least the way things are moving at Beale today.
I recommend you call out to the 12th RS and speak to some line guys. Surely, there are some C-5 drivers here you know?
Location is excellent.

I think he has already answered that question.

You've been flying for 5 years and 8 months and now you're upset that the AF has decided to give you a tour OUT of the cockpit? What contract did you sign that guaranteed that you would spend your entire career in the cockpit? Sounds to me like you have had a pretty good time up till now. Take this assignment and learn something more about the military than the inside of a cockpit; then when you have learned that you don't like the rest of the job in the military outside of the cockpit - either get out or make career choices that will keep you IN the cockpit for the rest of your career and be prepared to pay the price.

USMCFLYR

Other young AF pilots take heed. The writing is on the wall these days. If you want to stay in a cockpit, pick up the phone and call AFSOC. The MC-12, the M-28, the U-28 are all up and coming. They might not be the airframe you want, but it will keep you in the air. Or, you can sit back and wait to be non-vol'd to a predator. There is a very real possibility the original poster, and others like him, will never be able to return to the cockpit. With the way a typical AF career is structured, that's just the reality.

A considerable percentage of guys in my UPT class are wanting to go AFSOC.

Hell, I'm a Reservist and I'd damn well take a 6 month MC-12 assignment en route to my FTU.

the C-5 IP pipeline is pretty backed up. most prior airframe guys, still take 2-3 years to upgrade. it hasn't helped that i did a non-flying deployment 9 months after getting to Fred. i screamed through my AC upgrade and then quickly found myself at command post where i've flown two trips in 6 months.

but, i quite possibly, ****ed some people off...you never know.

that was the word on the street. i'll give the 12th a call and get a better idea. thanks

call it youthful ignorance, but i thought that it would be rare to see rated guys get yanked out of the cockpit for the UAV gig. this assignment will take me up to my commitment, so we'll see.


thanks to everyone for the advice, rants, comments and words of wisdom. "Needs of the Air Force" here I come!

It may boil down to a matter of luck (bad, in your view) and timing. There may be people getting extended, etc. If you look at their records, etc, it may be that you are merely the "fit" for the current moment. If you were deployed, sick, in school, etc. then someone else may have "fit" into the GH assignment. Maybe the assignments guy just picked your name at random and you fit---we'll never know because nobody will say.

Having been a career AF guy and been involved in promotion boards and assignments, I can let you know there is a "Halo effect" and a reverse "Halo effect".

Based on info from my day, getting an OSA assignment (C-21) as your first assignment is not good. You were only in your MWS for a short period and you didn't upgrade to IP ..... that is CRUCIAL. Your CC should not let this assignment happen unless you are being punished for something none of us know about on here. It is killing your career.
To go from OSA (unless you were the wing cc exec or something like that) to a MWS (and not upgrade to IP and were not wing cc exec etc), you are way behind in the AF. To go to a UAV platform now is going to hurt your career--you NEED to be IP/EP in the C-5 before you go.

Were you an IP in the C-21?

If you go to the GH, you need to upgrade for any and all special quals. YOu need to volunteer for deployments---become the exec to the OG/CC and wing/cc. Get jobs ABOVE squadron and Group level. At least at wing level. Get a safety position at wing level. Do it as soon as you upgrade. Get a master's degree. Go to SOS in residence (or whatever it's called today)

Better yet, do all you can between now and when you leave to try to upgrade or get jobs above the squadron level.

I don't know the current promotion rates/etc. but when I was up for major (O-4), people with your background didn't get promoted---additonally, they did not get good flying assignments after leaving their "bad" assignment. Remember, you are leaving AMC for at least 3 years---coming back will be hard when competing with guys who went to a MWS out of UFT and did 4 or 5 years, upgraded to EP, went to HQ or second MWS, upgraded to IP or became an exec for a GO at HQ. They are the choice for choice assignments.

Best advice for you is to become an exec (wing level) if you cannot get an IP slot before the GH assignment.

If you don't want to get promoted and fly when you return, do all you can to stay in the cockpit to get flight hours. They will be crucial when applying to airlines. When you get back to flying after your GH tour, you should be good on flight times after a year or so, depending on your times now. Hopefully the industry will be in better shape if you choose to leave the AF

Did they tell you where you're going? You know the Big Fork is getting a squadron, right? Great place for an aircraft unable to fly in any level of icing.

I've got a friend who's been in it for years, shoot a PM with specific questions and I'll see what I can find for you.

His CC likely has no choice in the matter. The days of "saving" good dudes from bad deals are over. There are WAY too many non-flying bad deals around and someone has to go. They just doubled the number of ALO billets. UAVs have grown exponentially. There are a ton of these jobs out there. Add on the 179 and 365 day TDYs to places that smell very bad and it's the rare dude that makes it through unscathed.

You're maybe a bit out of the game. The promotion rate for major hovers around 95-98% and has for many years. The only way you don't get promoted to major is if you are either a total maroon, or have been caught naked in the hot tub with the colonel's 16 yr old daughter.

The reality in the AF these days is that dudes with UAV stink on them will be MORE promotable, MORE likely to get good "career" type jobs later on. UAVs are the latest fad at the 5 sided wind tunnel. It will be looked at as a positive that dudes have UAV experience...in the eyes of the AF in general, not necessarily within the C-5 community. I know many dudes who have volunteered for them specifically because they would be good for their career.

It's a much different AF now than it was even five years ago.

Tbone:

Would you say that someone with UAV stink is more promotable than a MWS IP / EP ?

I'm asking because I really do not know the answer.

I was always told, make sure you get IP in a MWS ... EP or HQ if able. Otherwise, some jobs aren't going to be an option for you.

Don't get me wrong, we're all pilots and we all want to fly. But let's face it - there are fewer reasons to pursue a flying job outside of the military. You don't have to look all that far to find plenty of people who would rather be flying any UAV as opposed to being furloughed from a major airline. Hell, I even know plenty of guys with 5-10 years of seniority who would rather deploy to Al Udeid for 120-180 days compared to doing their airline job. Pay and benefits are way better in the USAF.

If you want to stay in and make it a career, the UAV job definitely has more advantages than being a C-5 IP. Let's face it, the C-5 may be on its deathbed... some will get new engines, and a lot more will go to the Guard/Reserve. Being an MWS IP used to be a mandatory square to fill for promotion to O-4. That was yesterday. Today, they still want a certain % of those folks. But the bigger emphasis is on fighting today's war. They absolutely demand another larger % of officers who have a broad baseline of experience, like C-21, C-5, and UAV. In your career, you WILL see either a space or UAV guy as CSAF.

If you still want to pursue the airlines in another 3-5 years, you can. I have a buddy who got into a bit of trouble and he got shipped off to a non-flying craphole job to finish off his 20 years. After being out of the cockpit for about 4 years, he got hired at CAL, and is now hating life on reserve in EWR. If you play your cards right, that could be you in 5 years. Just do a little bit of civilian flying on the side.

Riddler

MWS IP/EP opens up a few doors, like Altus (except for C-5 guys) and AMC/A3T, AMC/A3V staff. Being an IP/EP also makes getting requal'd after a staff job a little bit easier. Finally, it may help get a CC or DO job in a similar airlift squadron. So yes, it does have its advantages.

The UAV is a huge growth industry right now. Tons of open jobs, on active duty, guard and reserve. C-5 is definitely not a growing platform.

All else being equal (masters degree, similar OPR stratification, etc.), I find it hard to believe that a promotion board would value an IP with 500 combat hours over an MP with 100 C-5 combat hours and XXX worth of ISR experience. Lots of OPR fodder being in a new and growing aircraft - new systems upgrades, new procedures, new tactical manuals, etc.

So honestly, my opinion is that although being an IP/EP is nice, that NOT being an IP and instead getting UAV experience also has its advantages.

It depends. If you are going the traditional "perfect" career route to be an operational flying squadron CC, flying ops group CC, flying wing CC, etc., then you will still need to have credibility in an MWS, i.e. have been an IP (plus all of the standard squares filled).

But lets face it, lots of dudes right now don't have that kind of career to look forward to. For fighters, F-15Cs going away to almost none, F-16 squadrons closing down left and right, F-22s stopped at 187, JSF check is in the mail. Not a lot of opportunities for squadron, group, and wing command for dudes in those worlds, regardless of tactical resume. I can't speak to all of the heavy airframes, but I know there certainly is plenty of instability there as well.

But the real answer is that the current fashionable trend to the dudes in DC (DoD and HAF) is the UAV. Right now dudes who get CC jobs in the UAV world are about as promotable as anyone could possibly be, even if they wouldn't have been the traditional fast burners/commanders within their former community. There is a big push to put those kind of dudes in leadership positions across the joint world.

I am completely ignorant on the UAV jobs. But I am wondering, what kind of leadership experience potential do these type of jobs have?

Naturally, it is easier for me to see how an IP, heck even an MP, on a C-5 would have more leadership opportunities and jobs available.

And don't forget, our sister services are using enlisted to fly UAVs. And I think it is 100% fraud, waste, and abuse of funds to put a rated military pilot in the seat of a UAV.

There are likely more passed over Maj's in UAV than anywhere. Although the UAV may be the "wave of the future", the promotion boards are not taking that into account.

No one from UAV is going to schools, to staff tours, to anywhere. Go to work, go home - fight the war is the priority. The stuff that the promotion boards look for is not what is important in a combat squadron.

You are right - and Army WO's are flying manned assets - so it's also fraud, waste, and abuse to have officers flying KC-10's. Between employing GBU-12's in a combat environment in close proximity to US forces (in a complicated SPINs environment with a heightened sensitivity to collateral damage) and flying a coupled ILS, I think there is more responsibility required for the first.

For the record, the enlisted are flying their 36" to 72" wingspan aircraft such as the Shadow. The Warriors are being flown by contractors - I have been in a Warrior GCS in theater. The FAA still thinks it's a requirement for licensed personnel to fly large aircraft in controlled airspace or over populated areas.

I know a guy who hasn't burned up the program in his own community - at least on the tactical front - has done well in the training command but probably wouldn't get promoted in his current career track. He has decided to take the Squadron Executive Officer (2nd in command) of a UAV squadron out of Camp Pendleton and it will give him another deployment in theater. More than likely, this will be the tour that pushes him over the edge for promotion.

Flying UAVs in the Marine Corps
RQ-2 Pioneer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (16.9' wingspan)

LIM - check out paragraph #5 in the link article.

USMCFLYR

The Pioneer is the same as the Shadow that I mentioned in my post. They are not flying in controlled airspace, employing ordnance, etc.

They are also not checking in with JTAC's and being cleared into the same ROZ stacks as Vipers, Strike Eagles, gunships, etc. Just as RC modelers don't need to file flightplans, neither do these guys. Of course, there are associated limitations on where they are allowed to fly. It's a big battlespace and everyone has their part.

Hi!

I was reading that the AF is now calling them RPVs. I also read that for the newest crop of AF pilots, that over 1/2 of them will NOT fly a plane, and will instead go directly into RPVs. They may NEVER fly a manned aircraft!

Four of my buddies (from my US airline) are now flying RPVs for a civilian contractor. The guy who is an IP is making $600/day.

It looks like the pipeline for an RPV career is getting bigger and bigger.

cliff
GRB

WAFP -

One of my former squadronmates just got hired to fly the X-47B for Northrop-Grumman.

X-47B - First Navy Stealth UAV Ready

Looks like he will be spending some time in the Palmdale CA/Edwards AFB area first before moving to Pax river, MD eventually. Starting pay I think was in the $120,000 range. He didn't have any UAV experience prior, but this might be the type of thing that opens up to you even more after your Global Hawk tour should you decide to get out of the AF.

USMCFLYR

You are indeed correct. Disregard what I had said. Haven't been around for a while. Retired in 04. Capt/Major promotions were just beginning to be almost "automatic". UAVs are good for the career, at least at the present. Just spoke with my old exec, who was an O-3 (he's now a wing cc) and he said basically the same things you said above.

UAV's are good for the career if you want to stay in.

-the UPT-direct-to-Pred dudes will be released to fly before those of us who have been here for 5+ years (IPs) because 12AF cannot stand to lose all of their Pred experience
-No one is being released from Pred unless it's special assignment stuff. I volunteered for MC-12 and lost because "nothing gained for the AF" both LDHD assets.

Sprout where you are planted. Suck it up and smoke a freakin rag head from the US.

UAV's are the way of the future. Although I don't know what we are going to do with them when we leave OIF/OEF....years off.

I love flying the Hawg, but if I was sent to a pred, I would find the good side of it. For one, you were never going to put ordnance on target in the C-21/C-5, now you have the chance. I'd be on the fence on C-21 versus pred anyway.