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Differences In Each Path
I've been jumping around from forum to forum trying to learn a little more about each "branch" of Military flying. There's a ton of good info out there (baseops, wantscheck) but it's still all a little over my head. It gets confusing and I have a tough time distinguishing the differenced in each; ANG, AFRES, AF Active, ROTC, Enlisted, OTS, etc, etc.
Anyone want to spell it out for me? keep in mind I'm a blank slate when it comes to this so just a general overview would be fine; acceptance process, full-time/part-time, QOL, "If I could start over in your shoes I would _____." Links to info are better, for both of us... I'm just looking to build a good foundation of knowledge before I visit a recruiter, because as far as I'm concerned that's the only real way to get this thing rolling. I know it gets old posting the same information when people bomb the forum with lengthy threads about themselves and want to know "what are my chances." Each person is at a different point in life and have different things under their belt. I thought I would add a quick overview of myself in case anyone wants to make any recommendations. 24 yrs, BS Degree (3.4), PPL (50TT), A&P Mechanic, Civil Air Patrol Probably not the correct forum, but any information on what an A&P license could do for me in the military would be greatly appreciated also. Would I be able to get in earlier working as an A&P while awaiting/working toward a flight slot? How about ANG mechanic? Working 2 days a month on one airframe, while working ~16 at my civilian job seems like retention of knowledge might be an issue? I don't know, I'm all ears... EDIT: Not sure how I missed the entire drop-down "Pilot Slot Resources" on wantscheck. Answers just about everything. Still open to suggestion however. |
So now that I'm somewhat up to speed on what it means to apply for OTS, I've got a few more quick questions.
They mentioned you are the first selected and have a far better chance coming out of AFROTC. The problem is that I've already graduated college. Is it possible to go back for a second 2 year degree while joining AFROTC? I'll be 25 soon, after 2 years of college I'll be 27. That's starting to push the time limits a little bit, assuming the age cutoff is still in effect for AFROTC applicants. What are your responsiblities in the AFROTC? I had a friend in college who did this and as far as I can remember he had to do some physical fitness meetings once a month? I think he was shipped out to TX for some additional training from time to time. BTW, the kid is in pilot training right now. The second question that came to mind after reading that is while you are taking your AFOQT, TBAS, and getting your PCSM score are you locked into the military already? The selection process is long, and if you're not selected right away you're waiting til the next year to be reviewed by the board again. What if you are never selected for a pilot slot, are you still under a contract? What's life like for an OTS hopeful? After testing and getting your ducks lined up are you just working a civilian job and waiting for interviews etc? |
Originally Posted by Jones14
(Post 957336)
So now that I'm somewhat up to speed on what it means to apply for OTS, I've got a few more quick questions.
They mentioned you are the first selected and have a far better chance coming out of AFROTC. The problem is that I've already graduated college. Is it possible to go back for a second 2 year degree while joining AFROTC?
Originally Posted by Jones14
(Post 957336)
I'll be 25 soon, after 2 years of college I'll be 27. That's starting to push the time limits a little bit, assuming the age cutoff is still in effect for AFROTC applicants. What are your responsiblities in the AFROTC? I had a friend in college who did this and as far as I can remember he had to do some physical fitness meetings once a month? I think he was shipped out to TX for some additional training from time to time. BTW, the kid is in pilot training right now.
AS100= freshman, 1 hr per week, for a grade AS200= sophomore, 1 hr per week, for a grade during the summer, you have to attend Field Training, lasts approximately 4 weeks and you get yelled at a lot and march and stand at attention etc, kinda like basic training but i think the move has been to make it similar to OTS AS300= Junior, 3 hrs per week, for a grade AS400= senior, 3 hrs per week, for a grade as a 2 year student, you will only take AS300 and AS400 classes, and your Field Training will be 6 weeks (i think, maybe 5 weeks), and the additional time will be ¨Academics¨ which covers the material from AS100 and AS200. For students who take more than 4 years, their 5th year is usually called AS500 or AS700, something like that. they always change it, but back in the day they only required AS500s to attend 1 PT per semester and I think two leadlabs per semester, but by my AS500 year it was changed to attending all PT sessions and half of all lead labs. things may have changed. keep in mind, these are the bare minimums. the guys who got pilot slots were usually going above and beyond. you will have opportunities to have leadership positions which involve being in charge of projects. For example, we had a protocol officer who was in charge of putting together the dining out, which is like a ball/prom (best way of putting it in civilian speak). it included booking a venue, food, DJ, guestspeakers, decorations, someone to sing the national anthem, color guard arrnagements etc... your performance in these projects directly affects your cadet ranking, thus affecting your chances of getting a pilot slot, and totallying bombing it will hurt you. there were lots of jobs, including training younger cadets, cadet wing commander, vice commander, DO, morale officer, safety officer, CAP officer... each ROTC unit may be different, I can only speak for mine. there are also opportunities to do things not required, but improve your standing, such as color guard, volunteering for fundraising events (which at my ROTC detachment included cleaning the football stadium after games), and your attendance to nonmandatory events will be noted (for the positive or negative, depending on how well you present military decorum). basically, if you want to stand out, the bare minimum won´t cut it. same goes for being on active duty (XO duty and putting together a holiday party for example will get you a nice stratification :P)
Originally Posted by Jones14
(Post 957336)
The second question that came to mind after reading that is while you are taking your AFOQT, TBAS, and getting your PCSM score are you locked into the military already? The selection process is long, and if you're not selected right away you're waiting til the next year to be reviewed by the board again. What if you are never selected for a pilot slot, are you still under a contract? What's life like for an OTS hopeful? After testing and getting your ducks lined up are you just working a civilian job and waiting for interviews etc?
AFOQT was done first year. TBAS (BAT at the time) was completed in the summer approximately 2 years before commissioning, all your info for competing for a slot went in the fall approximately 1 year and 7 months before commissioning, pilot slots were handed out in the spring about one year and 3 months before commissioning. medical flight screening was conducted in the summer one year before commissioning. add 7 months to any figures for fall graduates. for those of us who were 4 and 5 year cadets, by the time we were applying for a pilot slot, we were already locked-in to a 4 year committment. if you never get selected for a pilot slot, most guys still got selected for navigator or air battle manager. guys who got medically disqualified from any flying usually went on to be intel (this was my case) or acquisitions (my friend´s case) or communications or whatever they had on their dream sheet not requiring a flying class medical. sucks but true, as a cadet you´re there to train to be an officer first, not a pilot candidate. guys who didnt get a flying slot out of ROTC could apply on active duty as long as they didnt exceed 5 years as an officer and could meet the age limit, but most guys i knew who applied from within active duty didnt get into UPT until their second or third application. hope I could help. |
Old but still funny (and probably relevant)
NAVY vs AIR FORCE Bob Norris is a former Naval aviator who also did a 3 year exchange tour flying the F-15 Eagle. He is now an accomplished author of entertaining books about US Naval Aviation including "Check Six" and "Fly-Off." In response to a letter from an aspiring fighter pilot on which military academy to attend, Bob replied with the following: 12 Feb 04 Young Man, Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?" USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one. Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore. Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado. PS: Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits. |
How about this letter, grumble?
Sir: I am D.J. Baker and I would appreciate it if you could tell me what it takes to be an F-16 fighter pilot in the USAF. What classes should I take in high school to help the career I want to take later in life? What could I do to get into the Air Force Academy? Sincerely, DJ Baker ********************************************* From: Van Wickler, Kenneth, LtCol, HQ AETC Anybody in our outfit want to help this poor kid from Cyberspace? LTC Wickler ********************************************** A worldly and jaded C130 pilot, Major Hunter Mills, rises to the task of answering the young man's letter. ********************************************** Dear DJ, Obviously, through no fault of your own, your young, impressionable brain has been poisoned by the super fluous, hyped-up, “Top Gun" media portrayal of fighter pilots. Unfortunately, this portrayal could not be further from the truth. In my experience, I've found most fighter pilots pompous, backstabbing, momma's boys with inferiority complexes, as well as being extremely over-rated aeronautically. However, rather then dash your budding dreams of becoming a USAF pilot, I offer the following alternative: What you really want to aspire to is the exciting, challenging and rewarding world of TACTICAL AIRLIFT. And this, young DJ, means one thing..the venerable workhorse, The C-130! I can guarantee no fighter pilot can brag that he has led a 12-ship formation down a valley at 300 feet above the ground, with the navigator leading the way and trying to interpret an alternate route to the drop zone, avoiding pop-up threats and coordinating with AWACS, all while eating a box lunch.with the engineer in the back relieving himself and the loadmaster puking in his trash can! I tell you DJ, TAC Airlift is where it's at! Where else is it legal to throw tanks, HUMVs, and other crap out the back of an airplane, and not even worry about it when the chute doesn't open and it torpedoes the General's staff car! No where else can you land on a 3000 foot dirt strip, kick a bunch of ammo and stuff out on the ramp without stopping, then takeoff again before range control can call to tell you that you've landed on the wrong LZ! And talk about exotic travel; when C-130s go somewhere, they GO somewhere (usually for 3 months, unfortunately). This gives you the opportunity to immerse yourself in the local culture long enough to give the locals a bad taste in their mouths regarding the USAF and Americans in general, not something those C-141 Stratolifter pilots can do from their airport hotel rooms! As far as recommendations for your course of study, I offer these: 1. Take a lot of math courses. You'll need all the advanced math skills you can muster to en able you to calculate per diem rates around the world, and when trying to split up the crew's bar tab so that the co-pilot really believes he owes 85% of the whole thing and the navigator believes he owes the other 15%. 2. Health sciences are important, too. You will need a thorough knowledge of biology to make those educated guesses of how much longer you can drink beer before the tremendous case of the G.I.s catches up to you from that meal you ate at the place that had the really good belly dancers in some God-forsaken foreign country whose name you can't even pronounce. 3. Social studies are also beneficial. It is important for a good TAC Airlifter to have the cultural knowledge to be able to ascertain the exact location of the nearest topless bar in any country in the world, then be able to convince the local authorities to release the loadmaster after he offends every sensibility of the local religion and culture. 4. A foreign language is helpful but not required. You will never be able to pronounce the names of the NAVAIDs in France, and it's much easier to ignore them and to go where you want to anyway. As a rule of thumb: waiters and bellhops in France are always called " Pierre ", in Spain it's "Hey, Pedro" and in Italy, of course, it's "Mario". These terms of address also serve in other countries interchangeably, depending on the level of suaveness of the addressee. 5. A study of geography is paramount. You will need to know the basic location of all the places you've been when you get back from your TDY and are ready to stick those little pins in that huge world map you've got taped to your living room wall, right next to the giant wooden giraffe statue and beer stein collection. Well, DJ, I hope this little note inspires you. And by the way, forget about the Academy thing. All TAC Airlifters know that there are waaay…too few women and too little alcohol there to provide a well-balanced education. A nice, big state college or the Naval Academy would be a much better choice. Hunter Mills, Major USAF |
That last paragraph... gospel.
(Not an Academy guy) |
Navy info at www.airwarriors.com. Search there for the answers to many of your questions.
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Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 957467)
The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.
in Singapore the hottest chick in the bar,... is actually a dude. :eek: Next stop... Thailand. That's ok, though. While they are on the floating grey prison for 6 months, you are doing TDY's to Vegas and Ft Walton Beach. Life is good. |
but at least they have their cruise sock for company!
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You guys are cracking me up. haha
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Originally Posted by HuggyU2
(Post 958327)
The problem is this...
in Singapore the hottest chick in the bar,... is actually a dude. :eek: Next stop... Thailand. That's ok, though. While they are on the floating grey prison for 6 months, you are doing TDY's to Vegas and Ft Walton Beach. Life is good. TDY in FWB or Vegas is hardly repayment for a 6-8 month stint in the 'died, Al Dhafra, or the Predator bullet!! Only difference between Balad and the boat, is the boat pulls into awesome port calls every month or so. My cruise sock was named Denise. |
Airman: "Hey Sarge, why did you pick the Air Force?"
Sergeant: "Well, in the Marines, you live in the mud and get shot at. In the Army, you live in a tent and get shot at. In the Navy, you live in a tin can and get shot at. In the Air Force, you live in a safe, comfy barracks and watch the officers fly off to get shot at." :p |
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 958531)
Not sure where you were hanging out, but all the chicks we found in Sing were Aussies!!!
TDY in FWB or Vegas is hardly repayment for a 6-8 month stint in the 'died, Al Dhafra, or the Predator bullet!! Only difference between Balad and the boat, is the boat pulls into awesome port calls every month or so. |
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 958531)
chicks......Aussies!!!
USMCFLYR |
Rebuttal
Grumble:
I wrote this a number of years ago...was going to send it in fun to Bob Norris, but when I read his website and found out he had brain cancer, I decided not to. Posted here in the spirit of 'ready-room' (squadron bar) fun. Tapes-on; Fight's on!: USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run, but the down-day for “Safety Day” will always be scheduled on the best flying day of the year. Their training programs are terrific, except when the current syllabus makes no sense, or new base-wide computer systems are installed with untested software, and hands-on training is an informal afterthought. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism, but that doesn’t mean that it will stick. Those who fail to meet standards are given waivers for political-correctness. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained, unless you are in a dying weapon-system, where you will scrounge parts from jets on pedestals (yup, I’ve actually done this). Their facilities are excellent, and yes, the Navy looks like the third-world in comparison. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained, and since they don’t eat on a ship, are at least 20 lbs lighter than their Navy counterparts. The USAF is homogenous and macro, which means you will drink vitamin-D milk and have Microsoft Word on your desktop. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect (damaged household goods), what is expected of you (join the O’Club or you won’t get promoted), and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations (TQM, ORM, CRM, and Diversity Training). You will never be put in a situation over your head; rather, you will suddenly find yourself in over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events (your wedding; your first round of marriage counseling due to constant deployment; your Divorce due to constant deployments, your child custody hearing, and your commander-ordered credit-check and financial history investigation). Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your ex-wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one, unless that pilot was a chick. That would just be wrong. Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). “Fly Navy” makes as much sense as “Float Air Force.” Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful---just like the Air Force. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it---just like the Air Force. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise, while if in the USAF, you will spend months in the sandbox. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts, which is an issue since most money in the Navy goes to boats. Senior Navy enlisted are the salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect---just like the Air Force. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be in over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times (ditto for the Air Force). You will fly with legends in the Navy in 4 v 4s against legends in the Air Force, and the USAF will kick your a$$ until you go back to “Marshall Stack.” Somehow, while awaiting your turn to “trap” in holding, you will expect (or hope) to become a lethal force. The Air Force will do 2 v2 while you are gone. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. Taking-off and landing from a carrier is an elite and admirable skill, to be sure. However, that esoteric ability does not translate into combat power or force projection if your target is more than 250 miles inland. That requires an Air Force tanker. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore. She is the hottest girl in that bar, but she is a TDY (TAD) 9…..a CONUS 4. She has a host of communicable diseases, many of which have no cure; some which could be fatal. She wants to get into your g-suit because you represent financial security to her and her entire immediate family of 17 people. She knows a drunk sailor is an easy-mark. Meanwhile, your Air Force buddy (who kicked your butt in the last Cope Thunder) is working on a hot state-side chick he won’t be ashamed to be seen with the next day. Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...screw the academies. Go ROTC or OTS!!!! |
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
(Post 958935)
Meanwhile, your Air Force buddy (who kicked your butt in the last Cope Thunder) is working on a hot state-side chick he won’t be ashamed to be seen with the next day.
And the guy who's never on the night schedule at the boat... he's an AF exchange pilot. Fly Navy! |
Originally Posted by XHooker
(Post 960520)
Unfortunately for the Air Force guy (Who called the kill on an out of the envelope, unvalidated FQ shot, because the mere thought of turning post merge with a Naval Aviator made him soil his flight suit) ... !
Originally Posted by XHooker
(Post 960520)
And the guy who's never on the night schedule at the boat... he's an AF exchange pilot.
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Definition of a fur ball... Navy guys never kill removing and screaming "Monte Carlo" all over the radios.
How is not being on the night schedule a bad thing? |
Originally Posted by Pakagecheck
(Post 960660)
Definition of a fur ball... Navy guys never kill removing and screaming "Monte Carlo" all over the radios.
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Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 960987)
...to put on a freshly ironed flight suit (seen first hand).
... however, I would call "bull****" on this, save for the fact that you saw it first hand. That said, in 25 years of wearing Nomex, I've never seen anyone iron one, despite all the claims from my Navy/Marine brethren that "AF guys all do it". Although, I used to wear an ascot... ;) |
Originally Posted by Pakagecheck
(Post 960660)
How is not being on the night schedule a bad thing?
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