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Blackwing 03-25-2013 09:30 PM

The AF is only interested in pursuing the model of "health" exemplified by Gen Schwartz and Gen McPeak before him--i.e., the anorexic twig who can't even lift their own weight, much less that of a wounded comrade.

Flyinhigh 03-26-2013 04:19 AM


Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1377341)
Hopefully the first of many commanders to get canned for failing F2F. The double standard is a morale killer.

Regarding Col Bush's bio--only 2100 flight hours in 25 years? That's even more embarrassing than getting fired.

You are right. For the commander of a heavy unit to only have 2100 hours in 25 years is pretty sad. But, I guess the only way to get that command position is to get out of the cockpit and do the staff/headquarters thing. I had a few commanders that had very little flying time; I never really respected them or trusted them when it came to operational things. If you haven't "been there done that" how can you expect to lead the troops and have them follow you?

rickair7777 03-26-2013 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by Flyinhigh (Post 1379697)
You are right. For the commander of a heavy unit to only have 2100 hours in 25 years is pretty sad. But, I guess the only way to get that command position is to get out of the cockpit and do the staff/headquarters thing. I had a few commanders that had very little flying time; I never really respected them or trusted them when it came to operational things. If you haven't "been there done that" how can you expect to lead the troops and have them follow you?

Wow. He's barely qualified to be my FO.

JamesNoBrakes 03-26-2013 06:45 AM


Originally Posted by Blackwing (Post 1379644)
The AF is only interested in pursuing the model of "health" exemplified by Gen Schwartz and Gen McPeak before him--i.e., the anorexic twig who can't even lift their own weight, much less that of a wounded comrade.

My experience in the army was that the guys that just seemed moderately strong and were fairly skinny were the ones that could haul the most gear over distances. Ruck, m60, etc. I think most of the armed forces are trying to go for rounded performance, but they have different ways of trying to get there. It was almost never some 225lb muscle bound 5'11" guy that was killing the obstacle course, carrying the gear, etc. The special forces guys I knew were tough as nails, but so much of it was mental. The AF should have some systems like the MC or Army for determining this BF thing, but you have to be careful it doesn't promote more unfit airmen, which really just depends on the exact program specifics.

rickair7777 03-26-2013 08:18 AM


Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 1379759)
The special forces guys I knew were tough as nails, but so much of it was mental.

Not all mental. SOF operators maintain a high level of cardio and strength performance by working both very hard. They are typically stronger pound-for-pound than a gym-rat who focuses on muscle mass, but slower than a pure-endurance athlete who doesn't carry any extra weight. It's a constant tug-of-war between strength and cardio, slack off on one and you'll know it fast. You must have a natural endurance ability as a basis for that sort of regimen..anybody can build strength with diet and weights.

HuggyU2 03-26-2013 09:15 PM


Originally Posted by Flyinhigh (Post 1379697)
I never really respected them or trusted them when it came to operational things. If you haven't "been there done that" how can you expect to lead the troops and have them follow you?

I think you and rickair (not qualified to be your F/O? Are you serious?) have lost your perspective in some cases. Yes, you have more flying time than they do. But do you think that, in 2100 hours, he hasn't "been there, done that"? Maybe not as much of you, but I doubt that it should take 4200 hours to "get your respect".

If it turns out that they are bad pilots, then so be it. But don't write the commander off because you don't think they logged enough time. It's quality, not quantity.

Now, how do you think they are able to talk intelligently about the GIFMAP for your MWS, BOG dwell issues, CDC's, maintenance issues, 7-level upgrades, the myriad of issues that the local congressman wants to hear about (and at a level well above what the average line pilot knows), budget concerns, etc...? As a guy who spent his entire career flying, I'm impressed when they can do all of that. I'm not at their level on all of those issues. But I don't need to be: I'm not the Commander.

Another thing. I've flown with many of these type of officers/pilots over the years. Most were fantastic. A few weren't. However, it had nothing to do with whether they had fewer hours or not. In fact, some of the "low time" pilots I know are better than most of us.
The good ones knew their limits, and relied on their A-team pilots when they needed them. Their knowledge of the mission was solid, however they knew their job was elsewhere, and not stealing the prime missions from the junior guys.

Bottom line: if you don't have respect for them, I doubt that much would change even if they had 8000 hours of flight time.

rickair7777 03-27-2013 04:05 AM


Originally Posted by HuggyU2 (Post 1380326)

I think you and rickair (not qualified to be your F/O? Are you serious?) have lost your perspective in some cases.

That's not what I said. I said "Barely qualified to be my FO" which is exactly true come Aug 1st based on his aeronautical experience. That was congress and the FAA's judgement, not mine.

I'm not saying he's a bad guy, he seems well-liked and certainly dealt with this adversity in a stand-up manner. But even I know enough about the AF to wonder what he's been doing his whole career that his time is that low...that would be a reasonable total for a pointy-nose guy. Separate issue from the waist size thing.

In the Navy nobody gets to be an O6, and most especially operational command, without doing their "MOS" job, and a lot of it.

JamesNoBrakes 03-27-2013 05:47 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 1379814)
Not all mental. SOF operators maintain a high level of cardio and strength performance by working both very hard. They are typically stronger pound-for-pound than a gym-rat who focuses on muscle mass, but slower than a pure-endurance athlete who doesn't carry any extra weight. It's a constant tug-of-war between strength and cardio, slack off on one and you'll know it fast. You must have a natural endurance ability as a basis for that sort of regimen..anybody can build strength with diet and weights.

That's what I mean. They aren't "muscle-bound" like hollywood depicts, their physical appearance might even shock some that think they know but have never interacted. But with a good balance between the two, the rest is the mental toughness and conditioning. Even in a gym you can choose to be balanced in your fitness, it's just that many choose not to.

Sputnik 03-27-2013 05:53 AM

Huggy,

I agree with what you wrote. But I have to say, 2100 hours for a heavy guy is remarkably low. Doesn't mean anything about his command ability (or probably his flying ability), but it is an interesting number.

MongoC5 03-27-2013 06:01 AM

Wasn't he a non-flyer prior to going to UPT? People always don't enter the Air Force initially to fly. Also, I know fighter guys with less than 2100 hours and I can assure you they are more than qualified to be anyone's FO.


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