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rickair7777 06-01-2013 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by larryiah (Post 1419829)
What is the horse****?

-Nation-building: The military is not a fortune-500 company that just suddenly decided to expand it's business model into a new venture. The civilian leadership is 100% responsible for the nation-building tasking; the only blame the military might bear is that it's possible that a few yes-men in the higher echelon weren't forceful enough in injecting reality into the civilians' thinking...assuming that would have made any difference.

-Eliminate contractors: Warfighters are paid a premium (pay and bennies) to be available for forward deployment, sometimes frequently and with no notice. We don't need uniformed service members doing the laundry, cooking the food, mopping the floors, or handing out towels an the gym in CONUS. Contractors/GS civilians are more cost-effective where you don't need to engage in combat or forward deploy. They are also useful in near-combat environments where you need to quickly ramp up certain skill sets which take years to grow in-house. Contractors can rapidly incentive ex-combat-arms types (esp SOF) to return to service. They should be used judiciously since they are probably more expensive than regular AD.

-That social media isolates military from civilian. If anything, I think it's the opposite. The most isolating factor I've observed has been the last decade of extra deployments and long hours...when guys do make it home they barely have time for their families, not much left for community involvement. And just like everyone else, they tend to socialize with co-workers. I am an advocate of getting all officer and senior enlisted CONUS housing off base where practical, including eliminating commissaries and large exchanges (keep a mini-mart/gas station and MWR stuff for single junior enlisted).

-Using guard/reserves as a "brake" on major war commitments. If you don't like what your politicians are doing with the military, vote them out. Don't try to "rig" the military to be less flexible and responsive so as to further your own agenda long after you're gone.

The real problem with an all volunteer force is not the force itself, it's the reduction in military experience in the general population....which is the pool from which voters and elected officials are drawn.

larryiah 06-01-2013 09:49 AM

Contractors are the biggest problem out there. Guaranteed that the military contractors are lobbying to keep these quagmires going. It's just too darn lucrative to quit now. A long but good read is No End In Sight, by Charles H. Ferguson. Nothing but interviews with the lowest grunt up to Rumsfeld. After reading this book, I am convinced that when the civilian leadership under Paul Bremer ( a puppet) took over from the Generals, the decisions that were made from then on we're made to throw the game, to create a quagmire. Why? Because quagmires are so lucrative for the defense industry.

threeighteen 06-01-2013 09:58 AM

The problem with voting civilian politicians out is that the only replacement choice you get is typically no better.

We need to eliminate the democracy and restore the checks and balances of the republic upon which this country was founded (which we really have no chance of doing either).

Until China (or whomever) overtakes us for global dominance, we're screwed. We will never make any headway against our military industrial complex as long as we are the top dog and have people afraid of what might happen if we are not.

rickair7777 06-01-2013 10:09 AM


Originally Posted by larryiah (Post 1419874)
Contractors are the biggest problem out there. Guaranteed that the military contractors are lobbying to keep these quagmires going. It's just too darn lucrative to quit now. A long but good read is No End In Sight, by Charles H. Ferguson. Nothing but interviews with the lowest grunt up to Rumsfeld. After reading this book, I am convinced that when the civilian leadership under Paul Bremer ( a puppet) took over from the Generals, the decisions that were made from then on we're made to throw the game, to create a quagmire. Why? Because quagmires are so lucrative for the defense industry.

The contractors I (and the article) was referring to are the specialty manpower providers who but hired boots on the ground, and did a boom business over the last decade. They are a minor line item as far as DoD spending goes, but the author feels their existence distorts the public perception of the military.

You're talking about the big military-industrial complex companies...that animal is what it is and has been for thousands of years. You can't defeat it (nor would you want to), you just have to fight constantly to reign it in.

larryiah 06-01-2013 10:20 AM

They're out of control and controlling Washington. They use our troops to execute their business plans. They have used these quagmires to plunder the treasury.

Sixty N Two 06-02-2013 05:08 AM

..right now [our military] it is probably the only component of the federal government which could (if push came to shove) be relied upon to stand by the people rather than those shoveling...

Rick...I've heard this too and it concerns me. Either people don't trust their civil leaders (seems to be common place these days) and/or that Americans believe our good natured red, white, and blue small town military heroes will discern between civil leaders proper/improper use of the Insurrection Act to circumvent the Posse Comitatus Act and then if they disagree will somehow stand by their civilian brothers/sisters. I have my doubts.

Some sort of check an balance is a MUST. The draft may work for the Army, but as for the AF our systems are too complex and training takes too long and costs to much get ready for conflict. The Guard and Reserves for all the ad-hoc ways of hacking the mission (and they do) frustrate AD military leaders but stand as our best way, at present, of retaining some sort of connection between the govt, military and civilian sectors and serve a that check to unrestricted conflict.

I also concur with the author that taxes are a HUGE check and balance. It will wake up America more than most options absent the draft. So conspiracy theories on this then go to who doesn't want America to wake up?

Timbo 06-02-2013 05:51 AM

Why are we still in Afghanistan? Because there's no money in World Peace. Like deep throat said a long time ago, follow the money. How's Haliburton's earnings been these past 10+ years? And what about all the jobs at all the aircraft manufactures, shipyards, HumVee plants, etc.

Yeah...

Now, that said, imagine the mess we would be in if someone waved a magic wand and there was World Peace tomorrow and the Military Industrial Complex shut down, for good. Imagine the unemployment numbers, when half a million unemployed troops hit the streets.

So, where do you want your tax dollars to go, if you're one of the lucky ones, who still has a job in the World Peace Economy?

Option A; The Military Welfare system we have today, where your tax dollars go to training and educating kids that would otherwise be unemployed and smoking crack, and building all that military hardware that provides jobs at home as well.

Option B; The World Peace option, where your tax dollars go welfare benefits and to building more jails to house those unemployed kids when they get out of high school and have no training and no jobs.

There's a lot of money in war, obviously, that's why our politicians keep doing it. They need the reelection campaign contributions from the military industrial complex. But where would you rather have that money going? Would there even be any money, or jobs, if all the contractors were out of business? Where would all us military pilots get our free flight training to become tomorrow's Airline Pilots??

Pick up a copy of P.J. O'Rourke's "Peace Kills" and "Parliament of Wh0res". Great, fun, reading.

DYNASTY HVY 06-02-2013 06:33 AM


Originally Posted by Sixty N Two (Post 1420351)
..right now [our military] it is probably the only component of the federal government which could (if push came to shove) be relied upon to stand by the people rather than those shoveling...

Rick...I've heard this too and it concerns me. Either people don't trust their civil leaders (seems to be common place these days) and/or that Americans believe our good natured red, white, and blue small town military heroes will discern between civil leaders proper/improper use of the Insurrection Act to circumvent the Posse Comitatus Act and then if they disagree will somehow stand by their civilian brothers/sisters. I have my doubts.

Some sort of check an balance is a MUST. The draft may work for the Army, but as for the AF our systems are too complex and training takes too long and costs to much get ready for conflict. The Guard and Reserves for all the ad-hoc ways of hacking the mission (and they do) frustrate AD military leaders but stand as our best way, at present, of retaining some sort of connection between the govt, military and civilian sectors and serve a that check to unrestricted conflict.

I also concur with the author that taxes are a HUGE check and balance. It will wake up America more than most options absent the draft. So conspiracy theories on this then go to who doesn't want America to wake up?

It's probably a bit of a stretch but how does 3025.12 come into play in relation to Posse Comitatus ?

rickair7777 06-02-2013 07:24 AM


Originally Posted by DYNASTY HVY (Post 1420384)
It's probably a bit of a stretch but how does 3025.12 come into play in relation to Posse Comitatus ?


3025.12 is simply the DoD directive that explains how DoD will comply with Posse Comitatus (which is complicated).

rickair7777 06-02-2013 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by Timbo (Post 1420369)
Why are we still in Afghanistan? Because there's no money in World Peace. Like deep throat said a long time ago, follow the money. How's Haliburton's earnings been these past 10+ years? And what about all the jobs at all the aircraft manufactures, shipyards, HumVee plants, etc.

Yeah...

Now, that said, imagine the mess we would be in if someone waved a magic wand and there was World Peace tomorrow and the Military Industrial Complex shut down, for good. Imagine the unemployment numbers, when half a million unemployed troops hit the streets.

So, where do you want your tax dollars to go, if you're one of the lucky ones, who still has a job in the World Peace Economy?

Option A; The Military Welfare system we have today, where your tax dollars go to training and educating kids that would otherwise be unemployed and smoking crack, and building all that military hardware that provides jobs at home as well.

Option B; The World Peace option, where your tax dollars go welfare benefits and to building more jails to house those unemployed kids when they get out of high school and have no training and no jobs.

There's a lot of money in war, obviously, that's why our politicians keep doing it. They need the reelection campaign contributions from the military industrial complex. But where would you rather have that money going? Would there even be any money, or jobs, if all the contractors were out of business? Where would all us military pilots get our free flight training to become tomorrow's Airline Pilots??

Pick up a copy of P.J. O'Rourke's "Peace Kills" and "Parliament of Wh0res". Great, fun, reading.

An instantaneous transition from our current military to zero military would have enormous economic consequences...but that's a theoretical discussion and won't happen.

There is a peace dividend to be gained by converting economic power from military to civil purposes, but if it happens quickly the transition involves pain.

If we do ramp down, odds are it will be slow enough to avoid economic catastrophe (if not some pain).

The post IZ/AF/GWOT drawdown will be somewhat limited, as resources will be refocused to the Western Pacific. Most of what's going away are junior ground troops and support equipment, which are not big-ticket military-industrial items. Not counting possible long-term sequestration effects...


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