Toonces

I put any first pilot time after wings as PIC (in addition to solo time prior to wings). It's completely legal iaw the FARs. I also have all my aircraft commander time totaled separately, in case a specific operator asks for the Part 1 definition of PIC. Note that I mentioned wings, not NATOPS check - while getting your initial in a fleet aircraft, you are rated to fly that aircraft, hence legal to log it as Pt 61 PIC. Additionally, where the definition of whether or not an aircraft requires two pilots, I would look at Chapter 5 of a NATOPS manual for amplification. Not all missions require two rated pilots, depending on the platform.

Hell, you can practically justify every SIC hour in a military aircraft as PIC, if you use the definition regarding SIC acting as PIC under instruction. There wasn't a minute where we weren't training to one degree or another.

E2CMaster

I used that for my 100+ hours PIC for ATP, but most jobs I have applied for have wanted the part 1 PIC vice 61.

Logbook Pro can do it real quick for whatever version I want though.

FlyBoyd

Be careful here gents...

As always, taking the conservative Part 1 PIC is easily defendable but...
IMO, trying to say you are rated (and therefore FP time is PIC) in a plane prior to a NATOPS check is debatable...and the last thing you want to do in an interview is get into a logbook debate.

So, the first time you flew a plane after wings you can count the time at the controls as PIC? I won't even go into the scenarios where I can prove this as, at a minimum, questionable.

Let's equate that to civilian terms. You have your commercial pilot's licenses from a military equivalency exam and you go to get your ATP. When you take your practice rides in the PA-44, a plane you've never flown, you are the PIC while at the controls?

Admittedly, the FRS formal course is way more than my example, but unless you get a Check/Type Ride in a FAA approved sim, there is no way you can justify Part 61 PIC until you get an equivalent check (NATOPS) in the plane.

E2CMaster

Since I always flew multi place, in recent (say 1995 or later) times, do Hornet/Rhino/Prowler/Growler guys get their NATOPS check done in the sim before they go flying the first time?

The 18B can have rear controls, I think he D and F as well, not sure on it, but for the EA-6B there is no second set of flight controls, so on "Fam 1" you have to fly it.

Being the only pilot with controls may be a PIC justification, especially if you signed the A sheet for it.

But in an E-2.. I'd been flying one for almost three years before I got A time on a 2P-2P flight.

Grumble

Do not put on your app you have an E-2 type rating. If it's not on your FAA certificate you're not typed.

Read what Boyd wrote, if I'm sitting across from you in an interview asking how you justified all this time, and you start sea lawyering it up, guess what I'm not doing? I'm not thinking about hiring you. How are you legal to act as PIC if not NATOPS complete? If you can't sign the book, you don't have PIC authority.

By the way, there is a good chance the guy sitting across the table from you knows NATOPS/SEFE/etc better than you do. One of my interview Captains was a 30 year reservist, O-6, P-3 type. You want to start debating the legalities of your flight time with him in an interview? He dinged me for a few pages I missed signing 6 years ago (yeah, they look).

e6bpilot

I have to agree on this one. Unless it specifically says part 61 PIC on the application like Master said, you shouldn't be logging any time without signing for it or instructing as PIC. You also shouldn't log any time unqualified in the aircraft, even as part 61.

I know from having several conversations that there are a few different interpretations on this, but I am going to take the most conservative and leave the sweating for the interview panel, not the logbook review.

mpilot153

I'll got ahead and type in the info I wish I had when I first started tracking all of this. First, airlines define the hours a little different than the FARs, so I would look at your target jobs before you get wrapped around the axel. FedEx, SWA, and AA on pilot credentials specifically say PIC = time you signed for the jet. This would include student solo time, but would not include the sole manipulator time, and if in doubt, email and ask. I have. UA and Delta are on pilot credentials, and it is a completely different tracking system, and I'm not sure how they would view the sole manipulator hours, but I would certainly ask before using that. I just left it at the standard of signing for the jet for PIC, and it keeps all my resumes looking the same.

If you don't want to pay money, and want to build your own spreadsheet, here are some things to think about tracking (note, tracking doesn't = what I report, but if you track the below items, you should be able to piece an application together really quickly)
-6month currency
-12 month currency
-24 month currency
-Total Pilot - out of standard Navy logbook
-First Pilot - out of standard Navy logbook
-Co Pilot - out of standard Navy logbook
-Combat - Two Interview prep people told me I am applying for a civilian job, and I should take this off my resume. But some of the retired military pilots that have been walking my resume around sure seem to like it, so it stayed.
-A/C Commander - out of standard Navy logbook
-PIC - I added this to my tracker, and it = AC Commander time + Student Solo time
-Instructor - I added this to my tracker
-SIC - I added this to my tracker. = the FAR definition, but I haven't seen an airline application that cares about the FAR definition.
-Student - added this to my tracker. The FARs have a crazy definition of SIC time, which by the book, all of your student military aviator time does not meet. However; the airlines on pilot credentials seem to take a common sense approach, and just want you to lump your student time and SIC time into one category.
-Night Time - out of standard Navy logbook
-Special Crew - out of standard Navy logbook (there were a couple of entries in my logbook, where it was added into my total pilot time) I had to remove it from the time. I track this time, but the airlines certainly don't seem interested in it
-Inst Act/Sim
-Landing -Day Some of the apps ask for total landings. I track total day, and total night. Nobody has asked to differentiate, but if they do, I will have an answer.
-Night
-Approaches
-Sorties - This was the biggest pain to add up. Every airline does a different sortie conversion. Now that I have my spread sheet that tracks sorties, it does all the math for me, and I can quickly add all of my hours in the way that the target airline wants to view them.
-PIC
-SIC
-Student
-Instructor
-Night

mpilot153

Oh, and most of the airines I talked to, also say to put evaluator time into PIC. For example, rated military aviator signs for the jet. You give the NATOPS check, both of you get to log PIC in this specific circumstance.

e6bpilot

Good advice about spreadsheet logging. Through trial, error, and frustration mine now tracks all those things and does the sortie conversion. When you are updating 8 applications a month, it is nice to have all the numbers they want without pulling out a calculator.

E2CMaster

I'm infamously cheap, and I shelled out the $$ for LogbookPro.

Worth the $$. YMMV

I don't report the E-2 as a type rating on applications, but as far as it requiring a copilot and copilot once NATOPS qual = SIC.