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Permissive TDY to take a 737-type/ATP course?

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Permissive TDY to take a 737-type/ATP course?

Old 03-25-2014, 01:33 PM
  #21  
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I disagree. The USAF sent me to a civilian type course and allowed me to get my ATP at the end of it. It was a great deal, but also broadened my experience. As an IP, I like to have some civilian training experiences to see something other than what every other IP does. Be upfront and honest with him and don't quibble if he says no.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:39 PM
  #22  
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Disagree with what?

For several airframes, the USAF does contract with civilian providers for training rather than go through the expense of developing its own training program (Global Express, 757, C-12, etc). In many of those cases, the USAF contracted training is equal to or in excess of what the provider offers to civilian customers for type ratings and/or ATPs. Several of the providers offer the type rating to the military member at no cost to the government, and in those cases, all the military did was not say that they couldn't do that.

The military didn't send you to get an ATP, to improve your civilian ratings, or even to experience civilian instruction so you could return to your unit a smarter person. They sent you there for IQT only. If that ATP would have cost any additional money to the contract, additional days in a TDY status, etc, the answer would be no in most if not all cases.

That scenario has nothing in common with going to a CC and asking for a PTDY so that you could go get a type rating not related to your primary MWS. I think it's worth a shot for him to ask, but that has nothing to do with your scenario.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:35 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by LivingInMEM View Post
Thrust, Women in Aviation, really? That's about the easiest sell out there for PTDY, if anyone actually gets PTDY to go to those. Military leadership and civilian leadership (all of them in recent history) has made it abundantly clear that the services will do ALL that they can to attract qualified women and minorities into the military. I don't care what you, or I, or anyone else thinks of that except for the fact that sending women military pilots to represent the service to other young women who are interested in aviation and who may become future military aviators themselves is clearly in compliance with that directive. The bosses give the marching orders, plain and simple.

The same goes to sending military SOF members and sponsorship to various triathlons, extreme sports venues, etc. Are you not aware that many competitive SOF members get PTDY or even TDY and entrance fees paid for various competitions? The impact to a young aggressive athlete of meeting and competing with an actual SEAL, and talking to him before/after the event, can be immeasurable; the recruiting value of potentially influencing those targeted audiences carries a lot of weight.
I agree with you- perhaps you should check your reading comprehension. I'm just saying that only an awful commander (and yes, we know of tons of those out there) would hold it against FLY (and hurt his "credibility", despite his VSP applications, pending IG complaints, etc) for even asking the question. If he doesn't at least try, the answer will definitely be no.

Not sure why this has people so spun up.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:52 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Not sure why this has people so spun up.
Judging by your "check your reading comprehension" statement, you are the one spun up.

If you want to go ask the Commander, go for it! Have a nut!

You said there were no downsides or repercussions to this... to which I stated there could be. I still believe there are. It could be a great commander... it could be a not-so-great commander. There is possible blowback. Accept it, ask your question (or don't), and move on.

I currently work for an excellent squadron commander. The "other" squadron I work with also has an excellent CC. The Ops Group Commander is reasonable, and I'd categorize him as "excellent". This P-TDY question is one of those that I won't bother them with. Everyone complains that nothing gets done, because leadership is slammed, and they are out of bandwidth. I don't need to ask my CC if he will approve something that is probably not allowed by the AFI. I can make that decision myself.

If you think it is allowed by the AFI... have a nut! And when your CC asks you if this meets the direction/intent of the AFI, you are going to tell him "100%, absolutely"... right? Of course, if you say "well... maybe... sorta..." he now envisions the 30 minutes he has to spend working on your PFA, instead of using that time to deal with the other pressing people and readiness issues that he has to deal with... things that he needs to do as an SQ/CC.

Over my career, I've made some requests to my commanders that were definitely pushing the envelope. However, I did my homework, and presented my case. In most instances, they agreed. A few times they didn't, because the potential blowback was too great. I understood that. It doesn't make them bad commanders.

For every time I came to them with an idea, there were probably 3 ideas I shelved, knowing I wanted to keep the focus on my priority, or that, while my idea was legit, I risked alienating the boss. I simply felt I couldn't monopolize their time/energy with every "great" idea I had. And I didn't want to put them in a position where 1). they got tired of dealing with me 2). I get them in hot water because they approved something that didn't go over well with Senior Leadership.

Additionally, I tried to ensure that whatever I did covered two areas:
1) it was beneficial to the squadron/Wing/AF
2) I was able to include others, so that they could benefit from whatever it was I was setting up. The proverbial "win-win".

BL: if you've got the rapport with your boss, and believe it honestly meets the criteria of the AFI, then go ask for the P-TDY. I don't think it does. When I got my FAA rating in the T-33, had I asked, would my boss have given me P-TDY? I'm going to get my L-39 rating very soon too. Since I fly the T-38, and they are both tandem trainer jets, is that beneficial to the AF to give me 10 days to go do this, including pay, medical coverage, leave accrual, and credit toward retirement?
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:11 PM
  #25  
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Huggy - everything you do is beneficial to the AF!
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:20 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by FLY6584 View Post
but considering a 737-type costs about 8-9 months of the GI Bill



during my training at CPT
Disclaimer: the only time I took P-TDY was for PCS house hunting....

Yep, it costs 8-9 months of GI Bill, what a great deal if you ask me. Who knows what will happen to the GI Bill after then next budget cuts. Go Now!

I highly recommend using CPT. Take the 10 days of regular leave and be done with it. By the way.....they had to move to Miami because excess sim time was non existent in Dallas, you should get it done ASAP.

Who cares about P-TDY, getting the ATP & type accomplished is worth way more than 10 days of your hard earned regular leave.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:26 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by FLY6584 View Post
So I am currently signed up for a 737-type/ATP course and I am partnered up with a friend of mine who is also in the AF and his commander approved him 10 days of Permissive TDY to go to it. His commander based it off of 36-3003, table 7, rule 15, but he is no longer in a flying squadron and I am afraid that if I ask my Commander to approve this he will be afraid to approve it because he will then have to approve every other pilot in my squadron that wants to do this. Has anyone ever used this reg to get a PTDY approved to go get your ATP?

Here is the rule:

to travel to a
governmental agency
to take an examination
for certification and
licensing in the
registry of medical,
dental, medical
service personnel, or
engineers, architects,
financial, and
Airframe &
Powerplant, or where
other profess
ional
certification and/or
licenses exists.

Note:
The certification and/or licensing
must have a direct relationship to the
member‟s primary military duties and
clearly enhance his or her value to the Air
Force.


I just read this again........I must admit........CPT or any ATP school for that matter isn't a "governmental agency"
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:02 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by AF2Navy View Post
I just read this again........I must admit........CPT or any ATP school for that matter isn't a "governmental agency"
I think my buddies commander was using the...

"or where other profess
ional certification and/or licenses exists"

comment to justify the approval. It would be the equivalent of a medical professional seeking the opportunity to go get a civilian license/certification to enhance their knowledge and expertise and make them more knowledgeable in their duties as a Medical Officer.

Would a 2 week course focusing primarily on flying a complex jet, working with a crew, running emergency procedures, and studying CRM be beneficial to any of us as a pilot in the AF? Sure, I think it most certainly would be especially when we are sitting at home station flying twice a month and barely maintaining currency as it is. BUT with the state of the Air Force and the mass exodus of pilots that the AF is facing one has to obviously think about the fact that 99% of us are going to get this to get out or at least protect ourselves should we be involuntarily separated.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:58 AM
  #29  
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If you are separating or retiring, PTDY is your benefit. Go ask. It's your future and your money. I'm a CC and would let anyone go expand their job knowledge.
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:24 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by AF2Navy View Post
I just read this again........I must admit........CPT or any ATP school for that matter isn't a "governmental agency"
At the culmination of the ATP course you take a check ride and are evaluated by an FAA designated examiner who is acting as an agent for the Federal Aviation Administration which certainly is a gigantic governmental agency organization.

That's exactly the rationale I used to request (and be approved) PTDY a decade ago to get my 73 type/ATP concurrently at HPA.
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