Explaining Involuntary Sep at an Interview
 

I have my first interview coming up, and was seeking advice on answering the inevitable question of why I am leaving my flying job in the Navy.

My commitment just ended in January, so I could have resigned 2 months ago. However, if I wait 9 more months, and get separated due to non-promotion to O-4, I will be 100k richer due to my separation pay. In my opinion, it seemed foolish to not bank the extra cash to ride out a few more months of a boring staff job.

My record has always been very good, EP's along the way, fully qual'd, NATOPS Officer, etc but the combination of force reducing and taking a non-competitive shore tour did me in. That shore tour, however, is what allowed me as a helo pilot to fly C-12s and pick up my fixed wing multi ATP, so I wouldn't be at this point without that job.

Just wondering if anyone has been in a similar position, and how I explain that to the panel without sounding as though I am a sandbag. Thanks.

I am in a similar situation so I would like to hear the suggestions also.

Depending on where you interview, there are a lot of prior military guys that will probably be on your interview panel that will understand the situation. It's not that uncommon. A good buddy of mine, P-3 dude was in the same boat. Solid track record, but he wanted the fun/flying jobs that aren't career builders and thus was shown the door as a non-select for O-4. You'd be crazy not to camp out and bank the separation cash. That said, I know a lot of guys in your shoes that got picked up for SELRES/FTS and promoted there. Look into it if you're interested.

Every employer understands the phrase "reduction in force"

I would leave it at that, unless you are specifically asked for more details.

Be honest about your reason for waiting around for the sep pay...shows good headwork.

Also could be viewed as someone who games the system.

I don't believe this to be the case, but you never know how a potential employer might feel. Why risk it?

It's not the CIA. Employers aren't entitled to all the details of your life. Just keep it generic. RIF. It happens. Next.

So, basically what you are saying is that you were "fired" by the Navy. You are competing with thousands of military pilots who didn't get RIF'd and made it through their promotion boards to higher rank. Honestly, why should they hire you when those guys are available?

I was twice passed over to major in the Air Force. I've had 3 airline interviews and I was never asked about it. If you don't have any skeletons, they understand people get passed over. If they asked, I would have been up front and honest.

I know one friend who was asked at SWA interview why didn't you get promoted to Lt Col. Kind of caught him off guard but he must have done fine because he was hired. Agree with others to not over think it and keep answers simple unless they specifically ask for more detail. Plenty of other prior squadron members who chose not do well on the promotion side (didn't do PME, etc) and separated or retired without promotions all got hired.

You must have been out of the service for a long time.

They are currently getting rid of a lot of great people.

At the same time, they are retaining the butt-kissing fast burners that have no people or leadership skills, (who have merely filled the proper squares.)

You know, upon further reflection, you're right. I'm in way over my head. I'm so thankful that someone with such inside knowledge on the latest happenings in the Naval aviation community was able to guide me in the proper direction. I grabbed an application from McD's on my way home from work today. Couldn't have done it without your invaluable insight.

To those that provided founded, beneficial, and constructive insight, I do appreciate it.

They're hiring you to fly airplanes. Staff work, snappy PowerPoint slides, and PME gets you promoted. Spin it to your advantage. "I prefer the rewards and challenges that come with flying over non-flying jobs."

I have plenty of anecdotal stories regarding this situation. Don't worry about it.

If the board doesn't go your way, apply to everyone you want to work for the day the results come out. Adjust your separation date as required. That extra cash is key. When asked about it, like other posters have said, be vague. I think in the current environment, reduction in force is an apt saying. The promotion rates for aviators recently have been abysmal.

I would stay in if I were you and roll the dice on the board. If you still would rather leave active duty after the results come out, you have that option now that your commitment is up.

Kb8018,

From a 19 yr veteran coming up on retirement...what's important is that you are going to receive an honorable discharge. You have decided to part ways with the Navy and follow another career path. That's all they need to know...in our profession of arms we are at times so driven to tell the truth we forget that we don't have to tell them everything about the particular circumstances.

It's common for a lot of folks to get out at the ten-twelve year point who may still be O-3s...point in fact, my oldest brother who was a distinguished graduate from his AFROTC detachment, also out of his Squadron Officer School class, and the wing/CC exec officer (the ***** boy who generally gets the #1 company grade officer stratification in a wing) the latter was the local leadership's last ditch effort to keep him in the service.

Did he share any of this with his future employers...nope, not a word. He simply stated that he had served his commitment and was ready to move on. That's all the airlines need to know. Good luck.

This. The fast-track jobs would have left you non-current or under-qualified for the airlines.

Definitely stay in for the separation pay, you'd be nuts not to unless you get an immediate offer from say FDX...in that case $100K would not be such a big deal.

A typical winged aviator who was passed over for O-4 is still, on average, going to be a better all-around person than the typical regional pilot.

Caveat, there may be a few airlines who will get wrapped up in military career progression, but most won't be too concerned about this.

I would follow advice from jkhill0.

Your timing might not point out the fact that you should have been promoted. I've got guys in my year group who will have their second look this April. Some may have made it last April but haven't pinned.

As far as the attitude of not making the cut, if you were any other year group, this wouldn't have been an issue.

If asked why I was getting out, I would respond that you were looking for more stability in life and wanted to part ways with military life. It was good experience but....

I have bounced between flying, school, and staff tours and worked my last assignment to get back in the jet but this also impacted my promotability as expected. The night I got the call in the AOR that I wasn't getting promoted, I hit send on my airline apps and finalized my plan to retire a year later. Take advantage of all the military has to offer as you wind down--log flying and sim time, volunteer for flying related courses, get any medical issues cleared up, etc.

The prep courses are great at helping you capture your positives and sell those main points during interview questioning.

kb,

Your logic and planning sound great. I can't see a hiring person having a problem understanding your goals and understanding what you're doing.

I think you're being too hard on yourself.

If you had a solid record in the Navy (EP's), and no career speed-bumps (not getting normal/expected quals, failing check-rides, etc) you will do fine.

Your explanation of going C-12's would make sense if your goal was an airline job. You might want to mention that you "intentionally took yourself off the helicopter career 'fast-track' in order to build fixed wing time knowing you'd like to fly fixed wing in the future". You knew it was a career ender, but you made a deliberate decision as part of your 'life plan'. They'll understand that.

I wouldn't focus on the non-select to O-4 but be prepared to answer it...and again, taking yourself off the helo fast track makes total sense and is very understandable. More understandable with "force shaping" and budget cuts.

If I were you, I wouldn't mention the 100k separation pay unless specifically asked about it (might **** someone off-- don't rub it in their face). I would just say something vague like "I believe I might get some sort of compensation but that is still being determined by BUPERS-- which is the truth right? (don't lie).

Your reasons and logic are sound. The hiring/interviewing people will understand.

Don't be too hard on yourself, and don't ******up your interview. :D

Best of luck to you! You'll be fine.

Cheers!

I got asked straight up why I didn't stay with 12 years active. I was a 2XFOS for LCDR as well.

Left HSL with a #1MP, had only been a LT for maybe a year when I left (checked in as an ENS), and then did a transition to E-2s in lieu of shore tour from a timing point. When I started the transition it was a 90+% selection rate to LCDR. When I went in zone (YG02, pulled up into YG01) it was less than 60, and was less than 50 for my AZ look (when I was actually supposed to be IZ).

I told them I had a non standard career path, mostly because I valued flying over promotion, and wanted to be a carrier aviator. I rolled the dice with promotion to be able to fly jets and turboprops off the carrier, which I did. I then threw in being Top Hook to get them off the "Why didn't you promote".

Went SELRES, got passed over for a third time. Dropped to IRR.

Then I picked up LCDR. Don't try to make sense out of BUPERS, they don't know what the heck they are doing. Apathy has been the key to promotion.

Really?

Did you read his post?

He's a helo guy who made a career ending choice to fly fixed wing so he could get an airline job.

Did you fly in the military MEMbrain? Or are you just being a troll.

All good advice above but I'll add this...

When you spin the "B" track Helo to fixed wing stuff be careful not to speak poorly of the normal "A" track path and the guys that go that route. There is a good chance one of them will be sitting right in front of you.

I'll most likely be facing a similar kind of situation. I'm working an extension from my current shore tour command. I've already been double tapped with EP's...so the extension comes at a price..I'll drop down at the bottom of the stack to a MP or P to make room for the guys behind me.

This is obviously against conventional wisdom. It obviously kills an AD career...and also any FTS chances go bye-bye. But I'm 100% percent punching out and feel like keeping on the fence will only hurt me if making the Show is my priority.

I want to keep current as long as possible, in addition to building time. I'll still owe another year of commitment...but this extension helps eat into it. And by dropping 60+ days of terminal leave, I'll easily be inside a year before turning into a non-current pumpkin...giving me a fighting chance to go straight from a disassociated to a flying job.

Even with the "bad" Fitrep (the front office will include language to basically say this fitrep should be ignored and I'm still a breakout performer), I think my chances of getting SELRES are still pretty good, since I have a lot of guys who will vouch for me at several commands. So there's my ace in the hole backup plan.

My only concern would be if that declining/regression FITREP would raise potential flags at an interview. Everything on paper will still say great things...just that the promotion part will be a downgrade because of timing. But I feel like I can comfortably explain it, and I still have good, normal progression of making AC/MC/IP/NATOPS Eval without any blemishes.

I'm banking on the idea that the thinktank for military promotion at Millington is different than one of an interview panel. Let's hope so anyway.

I interviewed with UAL and US Airways and neither one asked for copies of my FITREPS or about my military performance in my non-flying jobs. They did comment about the normal progression of AC/MC/IP/NATOPS Eval which you have.

If they ask about why you are leaving just say you have served your commitment and are ready to move on. No need to open a can of worms if you don't have to.

Any airline which does bother to review FITREPs will presumably understand how to read between the lines.

The fast-track to Flag rank is not the same as the fast-track to quality flight time and currency. I don't the majors really want to hire admirals.

Not to change your decision but two things to consider.
1. Getting out 9 months earlier in this environ might be worth lots in seniority. Also are you sure you will be passed over cause if you promote then your plan is foiled.
2. You can join selres and will surely promote if you participate but when you reserve retire they will deduct your sep pay from retirement albeit interest free so it's like an interest. Free loan.

This case makes the biggest argument for defined contribution retirements for military as why should 11 yrs of service be worth nothing but failure to promote is?
Luv

Here's a thought. Make sure that you don't use the "I just want to fly and I didn't want to be a butt kissing, paper pushing, non-flying, square fillin' douchebag." The guy doing the interviewing may well hold a current O6, O7, or O8 billet in the reserves or ANG. My airline has more than a few and at least one is on the interview teams. BTW, all the one's I met have been great. And I've met 2 different O8's this year.

A friend was recently interviews at DAL and they asked for the DD-214 with "failed to promote" line on it. He was turned down and thinks this had something to do with it. On a similar note, I know guys who have been hired by DAL and UAL with a 2-P. I think it just requires honesty and brevity. If anyone has any other advice on it, I'd love to hear it.

There is no actual line for failed to promote. Just a separation code JBK

The separation code is on the long dd-214 form, with the discharge character. Safe to assume that any airline will want to see the long form. They can Google the separation codes.

How about someone who lost their wings via a FEB? I know someone that this happened to. Is this too big of an obstacle to overcome trying to get on with a major? I know with how picky the majors can be right now I would doubt he would get a call (or maybe never). He is going to the regionals to build more time, just not sure if that is an obstacle that can be overcome these days.

I would imagine that losing your wings via FEB would be harder to overcome than multiple DUI's. Not trying to flame anybody..just put it in perspective.

Agreed. That being said, I have a friend who was just hired by a major with a FNAEB and gear up landing mishap. Anything can happen. How you tell the story of lessons learned will make the difference in the interview room.

FWIW - I was RIF'd, interviewed with two different airlines. Both asked why I left because it was obvious I was too young to retire. I was honest, brief, and had a canned answer ready. There are only so many questions they are allowed to ask by law, so don't sell the farm but be honest. My 214 says reduction in force...got offer letter from both. As far as waiting...if you wait you are giving up earning potential in your last years where you will theoretically be making the most cash. Depending on airline you can double that in a year, not to mention seniority. Additionally, 9months could mean hundreds of places in seniority at the majors.

Along the same lines. FNAEB (kept flying in the same community but with "extra training") and then several years (and a successful deployment) later Involuntary Separation? Finding some applications ask about Evaluation Boards and some don't.