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Thunderbirds Flight - Cockpit View

Old 03-31-2014, 07:33 AM
  #11  
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Default F-16 sidestick

The prototype had too much gain programmed into the stick, which led to an unplanned "first flight".

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When two F-16s first made a formation takeoff, both would make an identical small wing-dip. This turned out to be caused by the mechanics of the wrist, which does not rotate straight back from the original rest position. Turning the stick mounting a bit to the left fixed that problem.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:32 AM
  #12  
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I'm first and foremost a Blue Angels fan, but that is some amazing airmanship right there.

Curious, how responsive are the engines to power changes on an F-16? Lots of throttle jockey'ing to maintain position, but I'm guessing there isn't too much lag?

Also, I have to believe that the slot pilot at the end was pretty dang close to dragging his vertical stab through the exhaust of the guy in front of him. Plausible? If so, dangerous?

Great video. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:56 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by AZFlyer View Post
I'm first and foremost a Blue Angels fan, but that is some amazing airmanship right there.

Curious, how responsive are the engines to power changes on an F-16? Lots of throttle jockey'ing to maintain position, but I'm guessing there isn't too much lag?

Also, I have to believe that the slot pilot at the end was pretty dang close to dragging his vertical stab through the exhaust of the guy in front of him. Plausible? If so, dangerous?

Great video. Thanks for sharing.
To the contrary: there is lag in a straight turbojet, such as the F-4 or T-38.

For me, with a lot of fighter time, sandbagging quite a few rides in the F-16, and one in an Eagle, I found there was considerably more lag/spool time. Mostly spooling up, but even a little spooling down.

There's a lot more rotational inertia in an afterburning turbofan. I'd say three times the lag, at the lower power settings used for close wingwork (such as the Thunderbirds/Blues).
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:12 PM
  #14  
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Over that past several years the T-Birds have been flying the Block 32 and 52 models. They switched to the 52s maybe 5-6 yrs ago. These models use the P&W -220 and -229 respectively (as opposed to the GE).

All my operational experience was with the GE (30s & 40s), but I did fly the P&W at Luke (42s) going through the B-Course. Based on personal observation, I always felt the P&W had much better throttle response/spool up time compared to the GE. I think the fan section is smaller than the GE. It was just a tad easier to make corrections with the P&W than with the GE blocks. We have a similar GE in the U-2, but with a larger fan, and the spool up time is rather long. Not J-69 bad, but long enough to respect it on short final.

So, I don't know whether the T-Birds fly the P&W models due to better spool time, or just because Nellis has generally favored the P&W models for the other squadrons. That is a good question for someone who might know?
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:51 AM
  #15  
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I checked with a guy I know who flew as a Blue Angel solo: 40 lbs of pull, and the reason for the lack of G suit is what was mentioned.
My former TBird friend said they flew full nose down trim... And wished he could get even more.
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:43 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by HuggyU2 View Post
I checked with a guy I know who flew as a Blue Angel solo: 40 lbs of pull, and the reason for the lack of G suit is what was mentioned.
My former TBird friend said they flew full nose down trim... And wished he could get even more.
Since the Viper has auto-trim (it flies one-g when you release the stick) how do they trim it down?

Or was he a legacy Phantom guy?
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
There's a lot more rotational inertia in an afterburning turbofan. I'd say three times the lag, at the lower power settings used for close wingwork (such as the Thunderbirds/Blues).
Interesting. I can only imagine that that further complicates the matter of staying in position when in such tight formation. With power adjustments being so frequent yet with such lag in the application of the adjustments, can you elaborate on how you learn to 'feel' or anticipate the need to make quick power corrections before the engine has even responded?

I would presume that with such a well rehearsed formation demonstration that you will know pretty well about where your power is going to be at every moment in the maneuver and that you're fine tuning it from there.

Either way, it is certainly impressive.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AZFlyer View Post
Interesting. I can only imagine that that further complicates the matter of staying in position when in such tight formation. With power adjustments being so frequent yet with such lag in the application of the adjustments, can you elaborate on how you learn to 'feel' or anticipate the need to make quick power corrections before the engine has even responded?

I would presume that with such a well rehearsed formation demonstration that you will know pretty well about where your power is going to be at every moment in the maneuver and that you're fine tuning it from there.

Either way, it is certainly impressive.
The bold is the key. Knowing more or less how each maneuver flows, goes, and feels. The timing and tempo of your flight lead plays in to it as well. A good flight lead can execute the maneuvers so that it is easy for you to follow. A rough flight lead flies the maneuvers in a technically-correct fashion, but it is more difficult to stay in position, or at least, look smooth doing it.

As an experienced wingman, you just have to anticipate his next move, and work within the lag the airplane requires.
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Old 04-02-2014, 12:24 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by AZFlyer View Post
I'm first and foremost a Blue Angels fan, but that is some amazing airmanship right there.

Curious, how responsive are the engines to power changes on an F-16? Lots of throttle jockey'ing to maintain position, but I'm guessing there isn't too much lag?

Also, I have to believe that the slot pilot at the end was pretty dang close to dragging his vertical stab through the exhaust of the guy in front of him. Plausible? If so, dangerous?

Great video. Thanks for sharing.
The #4 jet is the only Thunderbird that does not have an anti-collision light on the top of its tail, as it would melt away due to its slot position. True Fact.

Also, the #5 jet has its number painted upside down on the jet, and on the pilot's flight suit as well, as he is inverted for most of the show. True Fact.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:15 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
Since the Viper has auto-trim (it flies one-g when you release the stick) how do they trim it down?

Or was he a legacy Phantom guy?
Viper trim is just like any other jet, you can trim whatever forces you want/need. Actually requires a lot more trimming that I expected.

I've talked to ET test guys that need to pull a specific amount of g for a specific test maneuver, so they'd trim in the 3 g's or whatever they needed and then just hold it at 1g until ready to start. Keeps from over or under pulling when the maneuver begins.
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