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Old 07-18-2016, 08:09 AM   #101  
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Totally old thread that no one is paying attention to anymore but I found it interesting to read. I was an S-3 NFO many moons ago. 3710 says that copilot time can be logged by anyone with an aeronautical designation (1320 is one) so I kept track of my front seat time. Later, I transitioned to pilot and flew P-3's, T-34's and C-12's and now I instruct at FSI. We still get the occasional NFO but of course do not redesignate them. They simply fly as a copilot (which the 3710 allows). My kids are all off to college so I am currently considering applying for airlines (who isn't) but did not include my S-3 time as SIC. There is a block for "other time" on airline apps so I have like 2000 hours of that. As a 1500 hour S-3 NFO with nearly 800 hours in the front seat, hours and hours of stick time including formation and field T/O and Landings, I think it is a real shame that the time is not considered. Really doesn't make any sense to me when I weigh my S-3 copilot time against C-12 or P-3 SIC time. But that is the way it is. Fortunately I have enough time to not need it but the extra 800 hours of turbojet SIC time would have been nice. Just between you, me and the fence post, I felt like flight school was overkill. I had already received great instruction from some of the best pilots in the world for almost 5 years. And as I mentioned, S-3 COTAC time is valuable and the lack of official VT pilot training time is inconsequential.


I disagree. You are not a Naval Aviator.. The time is certainly invaluable but to log it as copilot time is a reach. I don't think it would pass the smell test in an interview!
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:18 PM   #102  
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I disagree. You are not a Naval Aviator.. The time is certainly invaluable but to log it as copilot time is a reach. I don't think it would pass the smell test in an interview!
Actually, I am a Naval Aviator. Did you read what I wrote?
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:44 PM   #103  
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Actually, I am a Naval Aviator. Did you read what I wrote?


Yes.. But you weren't when you were in the right seat of S-3s. I know you are not logging the time but you imply that it is legit and I don't agree. I just wanted to clarify for those that might take that implied flight time and pad their resume.
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Old 07-18-2016, 08:09 PM   #104  
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Yes.. But you weren't when you were in the right seat of S-3s. I know you are not logging the time but you imply that it is legit and I don't agree. I just wanted to clarify for those that might take that implied flight time and pad their resume.
You may want to read it again. I did not imply anything. I said two things. (1) I logged the time in my military log book since 3710 allows it. (2) I did not include it in my airline application since that is not legal. If that was unclear to anyone reading this 2 year old thread than my most sincere apologies...
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:23 AM   #105  
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You may want to read it again. I did not imply anything. I said two things. (1) I logged the time in my military log book since 3710 allows it. (2) I did not include it in my airline application since that is not legal. If that was unclear to anyone reading this 2 year old thread than my most sincere apologies...


No worries.. I guess my contention was that logging it as SIC is legit. And if 3710 allows for it, then why is always logged as Special Crew Time? I don't understand how you get around that? I have heard of NFOs logging it as SIC in a civilian logbook and that was the way I read into your post. My bad; I misunderstood.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:04 PM   #106  
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Resurrecting an old thread for some informative discussion points.

First thing to note, Iím a former Navy NFO turned pilot. I did fly a Navy aircraft in which the TCDS required two pilots. The NATOPS lists the NFO as a required crew member with a co-pilot checkride and refers to the NFO as an SIC. Training took place with FSI and training program mirrors FAR 61.55 for a SIC. And the PIC was not Navy either but instead a civilian contractor!

Hereís another thing thatíll get many panties in a bunch...a few of us NFO pilot types got type ratings added too!

To my original point, after seeing FEís get credit for 500 hours towards their R-ATP Iíd like to start talking to the right people, getting some support, and seeing if I might be able to help out the NFO/WSO in the same manner as a military FE. I sure would have liked the credit!

After working my way up, it didnít take long to realize that a guy with 1000 hours in Cessna was far more dangerous than a WSO with 500 traps and 2500 hours in Navy aircraft plus all the other aviation based training that goes along with it.

I imagine thereís never been support nor a push for back seat guys to get ATP credit for their experience but I feel like it might be worth a shot.

What organizations would you guys start with for some assistance?
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:13 PM   #107  
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Resurrecting an old thread for some informative discussion points.

First thing to note, Iím a former Navy NFO turned pilot. I did fly a Navy aircraft in which the TCDS required two pilots. The NATOPS lists the NFO as a required crew member with a co-pilot checkride and refers to the NFO as an SIC. Training took place with FSI and training program mirrors FAR 61.55 for a SIC. And the PIC was not Navy either but instead a civilian contractor!

Hereís another thing thatíll get many panties in a bunch...a few of us NFO pilot types got type ratings added too!

To my original point, after seeing FEís get credit for 500 hours towards their R-ATP Iíd like to start talking to the right people, getting some support, and seeing if I might be able to help out the NFO/WSO in the same manner as a military FE. I sure would have liked the credit!

After working my way up, it didnít take long to realize that a guy with 1000 hours in Cessna was far more dangerous than a WSO with 500 traps and 2500 hours in Navy aircraft plus all the other aviation based training that goes along with it.

I imagine thereís never been support nor a push for back seat guys to get ATP credit for their experience but I feel like it might be worth a shot.

What organizations would you guys start with for some assistance?
As a former USAF back seater I suggest you forget about it. It would take (another) act of Congress. That would have to be proposed and go through multiple committees and have multiple hearings. Simply not going to happen in any reasonable timeframe, assuming it coukd actually happen at all. Long before it could ever happen (assuming the shutdown is even over), you could have gotten the hours yourself and moved on.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:39 PM   #108  
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As a former USAF back seater I suggest you forget about it. It would take (another) act of Congress. That would have to be proposed and go through multiple committees and have multiple hearings. Simply not going to happen in any reasonable timeframe, assuming it coukd actually happen at all. Long before it could ever happen (assuming the shutdown is even over), you could have gotten the hours yourself and moved on.

I already have the time but I always wondered why an FE gets a break but not an NFO/WSO.

I imagine youíre right with an cat of Congress....thatís probably why no one has at least given it an attempt in the past.

Thanks.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:58 PM   #109  
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Allover -

Donít be cryptic....what aircraft?
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:21 PM   #110  
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After working my way up, it didnít take long to realize that a guy with 1000 hours in Cessna was far more dangerous than a WSO with 500 traps and 2500 hours in Navy aircraft plus all the other aviation based training that goes along with it.

I imagine thereís never been support nor a push for back seat guys to get ATP credit for their experience but I feel like it might be worth a shot.

What organizations would you guys start with for some assistance?[/QUOTE]

Easy there with that sense of entitlement my double anchor brother. My helmet bag has the same amount of landings and hours you do. That doesnít mean that itís qualified to get credit towards an Airline PILOT Transport certificate.
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