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Old 08-27-2014, 12:50 PM   #1  
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Default Restricted ATP for NFOs?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but I have to at least ask. Has anyone ever heard of the Restricted ATP (given to military trainined pilots at 750 hours vice 1500 hours) given to NFOs (backseaters)? I'm pretty sure it's not possible but figured I would through it out there to see if anyone else has heard anything. It would save a lot of time building, so it's worth a long shot.

Thanks!
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:15 PM   #2  
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Uhhhh.......I'm going out on a limb here and saying - No.

Sorry - but the NFOs didn't get their equivalency ratings after getting winged (nor could they of course). They aren't even student private pilots in the eyes of the FAA - much less eligible for an ATP (restricted or not).
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:30 PM   #3  
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No. Same for enlisted aircrew, loadies, boomers, etc.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:52 PM   #4  
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That's an interesting question. I believe S-3 NFOs are able to log 2nd pilot time. Also, when I flew C-12s in Coronado we had a S-3 NFO who would sit right seat and log 2nd pilot time.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:10 PM   #5  
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You can log what you want...whether or not it is accepted by the FAA or a future employer (it won't be) is another matter. I could sit in the left seat of a tour helicopter and log rotor wing time...that will take me nowhere.

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Old 08-27-2014, 05:04 PM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenacvols View Post
That's an interesting question. I believe S-3 NFOs are able to log 2nd pilot time.

Some airlines might have accepted that, maybe. They were required crew at a flight-control station. It would help if they had an FAA pilot cert while doing it.

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Originally Posted by Tenacvols View Post
Also, when I flew C-12s in Coronado we had a S-3 NFO who would sit right seat and log 2nd pilot time.
Is a right-seater required? Or is he just sitting there?
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:34 AM   #7  
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Quote:
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Is a right-seater required? Or is he just sitting there?
Yes, right-seater required. I believe he had his Private Pilots license but I don't remember all of the details. Our C-12's went away 5 months after I got there.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:08 AM   #8  
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It varies by airline, but many of them explicitly state in their hiring material to not include NFO/Nav/etc (any non-pilot rating or specialty) in the flight time on the application.

With respect to the FAA, I know of some FSDOs many years ago (early to mid 90s) who gave flight time credit to WSOs in 2-seat fighters who were going for ATPs, but those were guys who all ready had FAA pilot ratings in addition to their military Nav qualification. The two that I know of that did this all ready had FAA MEL tickets and were using their "FAA-part 61 equivalent" sole-manipulator-of-the-controls-while-in-an-F-4-or-F-15E argument to justify the time in their logbook. The inspectors bought that, because of their MEL rating, they were "qualified" to act as PIC in the F-4 and/or F-15E (IMHO not a valid argument, but I'm not a FSDO inspector).

Even in that situation, their experience was only being used to fill some of the flight time requirement for the ATP -- they were still taking a full-up ATP practical test to receive the rating.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:54 AM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacker15e View Post
It varies by airline, but many of them explicitly state in their hiring material to not include NFO/Nav/etc (any non-pilot rating or specialty) in the flight time on the application.

With respect to the FAA, I know of some FSDOs many years ago (early to mid 90s) who gave flight time credit to WSOs in 2-seat fighters who were going for ATPs, but those were guys who all ready had FAA pilot ratings in addition to their military Nav qualification. The two that I know of that did this all ready had FAA MEL tickets and were using their "FAA-part 61 equivalent" sole-manipulator-of-the-controls-while-in-an-F-4-or-F-15E argument to justify the time in their logbook. The inspectors bought that, because of their MEL rating, they were "qualified" to act as PIC in the F-4 and/or F-15E (IMHO not a valid argument, but I'm not a FSDO inspector).

Even in that situation, their experience was only being used to fill some of the flight time requirement for the ATP -- they were still taking a full-up ATP practical test to receive the rating.
The S-3 guys (when sitting in the front-right seat) actually had a set of flight controls, and did routinely fly the aircraft to relieve the pilot.

No problem with logging that IMO, if they have a pilot license and the regulatory ins & outs don't preclude it. They shouldn't be logging any LDGs though...
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:41 PM   #10  
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The big difference was hit in the post above. The NFO in the S-3 and the C-12 was acting as a pilot with a set of controls. They were a required crew member that underwent initial training to fulfill that position. I think they should be allowed to log sole manipulator and SIC where applicable. They are not and should not be part 1 PIC though.
Sitting in the back without a set of controls...not a chance.
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