Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Military
Restricted ATP for NFOs? >

Restricted ATP for NFOs?

Notices
Military Military Aviation

Restricted ATP for NFOs?

Old 08-27-2014, 12:50 PM
  #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Posts: 25
Default Restricted ATP for NFOs?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but I have to at least ask. Has anyone ever heard of the Restricted ATP (given to military trainined pilots at 750 hours vice 1500 hours) given to NFOs (backseaters)? I'm pretty sure it's not possible but figured I would through it out there to see if anyone else has heard anything. It would save a lot of time building, so it's worth a long shot.

Thanks!
sfitz is offline  
Old 08-27-2014, 01:15 PM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
USMCFLYR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,835
Default


Uhhhh.......I'm going out on a limb here and saying - No.

Sorry - but the NFOs didn't get their equivalency ratings after getting winged (nor could they of course). They aren't even student private pilots in the eyes of the FAA - much less eligible for an ATP (restricted or not).
USMCFLYR is offline  
Old 08-27-2014, 02:30 PM
  #3  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,098
Default

No. Same for enlisted aircrew, loadies, boomers, etc.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 08-27-2014, 02:52 PM
  #4  
More Cowbell!!!
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Spreading the LUV from the "Write" seat!!!
Posts: 344
Default

That's an interesting question. I believe S-3 NFOs are able to log 2nd pilot time. Also, when I flew C-12s in Coronado we had a S-3 NFO who would sit right seat and log 2nd pilot time.
Tenacvols is offline  
Old 08-27-2014, 03:10 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Pilot7576's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 679
Default

You can log what you want...whether or not it is accepted by the FAA or a future employer (it won't be) is another matter. I could sit in the left seat of a tour helicopter and log rotor wing time...that will take me nowhere.

Pilot7576
Pilot7576 is offline  
Old 08-27-2014, 05:04 PM
  #6  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,098
Default

Originally Posted by Tenacvols View Post
That's an interesting question. I believe S-3 NFOs are able to log 2nd pilot time.

Some airlines might have accepted that, maybe. They were required crew at a flight-control station. It would help if they had an FAA pilot cert while doing it.

Originally Posted by Tenacvols View Post
Also, when I flew C-12s in Coronado we had a S-3 NFO who would sit right seat and log 2nd pilot time.
Is a right-seater required? Or is he just sitting there?
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 08-28-2014, 03:34 AM
  #7  
More Cowbell!!!
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Spreading the LUV from the "Write" seat!!!
Posts: 344
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Is a right-seater required? Or is he just sitting there?
Yes, right-seater required. I believe he had his Private Pilots license but I don't remember all of the details. Our C-12's went away 5 months after I got there.
Tenacvols is offline  
Old 08-28-2014, 05:08 AM
  #8  
China Visa Applicant
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: IPZ to Mr.
Posts: 1,915
Default

It varies by airline, but many of them explicitly state in their hiring material to not include NFO/Nav/etc (any non-pilot rating or specialty) in the flight time on the application.

With respect to the FAA, I know of some FSDOs many years ago (early to mid 90s) who gave flight time credit to WSOs in 2-seat fighters who were going for ATPs, but those were guys who all ready had FAA pilot ratings in addition to their military Nav qualification. The two that I know of that did this all ready had FAA MEL tickets and were using their "FAA-part 61 equivalent" sole-manipulator-of-the-controls-while-in-an-F-4-or-F-15E argument to justify the time in their logbook. The inspectors bought that, because of their MEL rating, they were "qualified" to act as PIC in the F-4 and/or F-15E (IMHO not a valid argument, but I'm not a FSDO inspector).

Even in that situation, their experience was only being used to fill some of the flight time requirement for the ATP -- they were still taking a full-up ATP practical test to receive the rating.
Hacker15e is offline  
Old 08-28-2014, 06:54 AM
  #9  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,098
Default

Originally Posted by Hacker15e View Post
It varies by airline, but many of them explicitly state in their hiring material to not include NFO/Nav/etc (any non-pilot rating or specialty) in the flight time on the application.

With respect to the FAA, I know of some FSDOs many years ago (early to mid 90s) who gave flight time credit to WSOs in 2-seat fighters who were going for ATPs, but those were guys who all ready had FAA pilot ratings in addition to their military Nav qualification. The two that I know of that did this all ready had FAA MEL tickets and were using their "FAA-part 61 equivalent" sole-manipulator-of-the-controls-while-in-an-F-4-or-F-15E argument to justify the time in their logbook. The inspectors bought that, because of their MEL rating, they were "qualified" to act as PIC in the F-4 and/or F-15E (IMHO not a valid argument, but I'm not a FSDO inspector).

Even in that situation, their experience was only being used to fill some of the flight time requirement for the ATP -- they were still taking a full-up ATP practical test to receive the rating.
The S-3 guys (when sitting in the front-right seat) actually had a set of flight controls, and did routinely fly the aircraft to relieve the pilot.

No problem with logging that IMO, if they have a pilot license and the regulatory ins & outs don't preclude it. They shouldn't be logging any LDGs though...
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 08-28-2014, 02:41 PM
  #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,374
Default

The big difference was hit in the post above. The NFO in the S-3 and the C-12 was acting as a pilot with a set of controls. They were a required crew member that underwent initial training to fulfill that position. I think they should be allowed to log sole manipulator and SIC where applicable. They are not and should not be part 1 PIC though.
Sitting in the back without a set of controls...not a chance.
e6bpilot is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
DaCat1989
Hiring News
15
09-03-2014 11:09 PM
Bumper
Flight Schools and Training
7
01-21-2014 10:06 AM
Zona Pilot 1830
Aviation Law
3
12-17-2013 04:21 PM
Crazy Canuck
Career Questions
2
10-08-2013 03:13 AM
Planespotta
Flight Schools and Training
9
06-20-2007 08:19 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices