Mil Retirement vs Airline Jump
03-07-2015, 11:37 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by 2loud
The BS only gets worse with time but it has always been like this as far as I've been around-same gripes 25 years ago! Stop-loss one day, VSP another, pilot overage, then pilot shortage, bonus, no bonus, on and on...they never seem to get it right nor will they ever, all because we have no true leadership and it starts at the top.
A friend's dad was retiring from the military (F-4 pilot) when I was graduating from high school. All of his stories aspired me to be an AF officer/pilot. That was back in the mid 80's (yeah, I'm getting old
). I think that was the beginning of the end of the "good 'ol days" because I've never experienced them. It was always do more with less and being a pilot was an after thought for the SQ-Wing CCs. Endless BS additional duties (mostly made up "make your CC look good" projects) along with ludicrous time consuming ground training events was unbearable, as ya'll know. It should not surprise AFPC with respect to the high percentage of VSP takers. For all those going for 20, my hats off to ya'll. During my AD years, I've missed every single anniversary, missed the birth of my second child, missed most of my kids' birthdays, most Christmas, Thanksgiving, and major holidays. A bad day in the airline is when I'm a day late getting home, paid at 150% vs. 5 days late getting home and getting my arm twisted to waive my post mission crew rest by the scheduler/CC. Oh, how about them 6+month non-flying tours to the sand box?!?! So.... I'd have to say the grass is muuuuuch greener on this side!
A friend's dad was retiring from the military (F-4 pilot) when I was graduating from high school. All of his stories aspired me to be an AF officer/pilot. That was back in the mid 80's (yeah, I'm getting old
). I think that was the beginning of the end of the "good 'ol days" because I've never experienced them. It was always do more with less and being a pilot was an after thought for the SQ-Wing CCs. Endless BS additional duties (mostly made up "make your CC look good" projects) along with ludicrous time consuming ground training events was unbearable, as ya'll know. It should not surprise AFPC with respect to the high percentage of VSP takers. For all those going for 20, my hats off to ya'll. During my AD years, I've missed every single anniversary, missed the birth of my second child, missed most of my kids' birthdays, most Christmas, Thanksgiving, and major holidays. A bad day in the airline is when I'm a day late getting home, paid at 150% vs. 5 days late getting home and getting my arm twisted to waive my post mission crew rest by the scheduler/CC. Oh, how about them 6+month non-flying tours to the sand box?!?! So.... I'd have to say the grass is muuuuuch greener on this side!How is this different at the airlines?
03-07-2015, 11:39 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Frank K
Don't be a fool. Stay and get your 20. I've been at UAL for 17 years and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Stuck in the same seat and fleet for 15 years.
The shine comes off the airline gig real quick and it becomes more like a paper route.
You need to discount your expected airline earnings by the current junk bond rate of 7%. You can discount your military pension by the 30 TIPS real rate of 1%. Then compare the present value of each. I'd also assume a few years of airline furlough.
The shine comes off the airline gig real quick and it becomes more like a paper route.
You need to discount your expected airline earnings by the current junk bond rate of 7%. You can discount your military pension by the 30 TIPS real rate of 1%. Then compare the present value of each. I'd also assume a few years of airline furlough.
03-08-2015, 09:04 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Pressing On
Posts: 524
Pretty much
Originally Posted by F15Cricket
Definitely! Especially if you have to commute to either job.
When I was in Vegas on a layover a couple of weeks ago, I met up with a fellow retired fighter pilot. He served 29 years and now flies for Southwest. I did 22 years and now fly for Alaska. We both agreed that the airline gig is:
-- An awesome retirement job
-- We are happy flying shorter, domestic trips on the 737
-- We don't have any desire to fly widebodies internationally. (We have seen the world, and long layovers away from home are our type of trips.)
If I was 30, I think doing this job for 30+ years would get old, no matter how much you get paid.
Finally, thanks for your service (to the op). But if you are doing a spreadsheet comparing numbers, just completely separate from the military. Flying in the military is a profession and a calling, not a job. In addition, you will be sorely disappointed with your choice (to stay in or get out, choice of airline / aircraft / domicile), and probably divorced if you are chasing bucks or the next upgrade. I remember instructors doing spreadsheets when I was at USAFA in the 80s ... and again in my squadron in the 90s ... and now, again. I personally know three dudes who separated, got hired by United, got furloughed five years later, and came back on active duty until they retired. Don't think those conditions that allowed them to come back on AD will exist again.
Personally, I wouldn't trade one year of my service for any amount of seniority. But each person has different desires and goals from what they want in an airline job.
When I was in Vegas on a layover a couple of weeks ago, I met up with a fellow retired fighter pilot. He served 29 years and now flies for Southwest. I did 22 years and now fly for Alaska. We both agreed that the airline gig is:
-- An awesome retirement job
-- We are happy flying shorter, domestic trips on the 737
-- We don't have any desire to fly widebodies internationally. (We have seen the world, and long layovers away from home are our type of trips.)
If I was 30, I think doing this job for 30+ years would get old, no matter how much you get paid.
Finally, thanks for your service (to the op). But if you are doing a spreadsheet comparing numbers, just completely separate from the military. Flying in the military is a profession and a calling, not a job. In addition, you will be sorely disappointed with your choice (to stay in or get out, choice of airline / aircraft / domicile), and probably divorced if you are chasing bucks or the next upgrade. I remember instructors doing spreadsheets when I was at USAFA in the 80s ... and again in my squadron in the 90s ... and now, again. I personally know three dudes who separated, got hired by United, got furloughed five years later, and came back on active duty until they retired. Don't think those conditions that allowed them to come back on AD will exist again.
Personally, I wouldn't trade one year of my service for any amount of seniority. But each person has different desires and goals from what they want in an airline job.
03-08-2015, 11:20 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Originally Posted by SteveA
Hilltopper, I just re-read your post and have a question. The pilots to which you're referring, the ones on mil leave during the bid period and over holidays, are they on long-term mil leave? As in a 365 day + Title 10 or Title 32 order? If so, that is significantly different than a pilot using mil leave as a scheduling tool to drop trips s/he doesn't like. If the ARC members are on continuous long-term orders, I can assure you "work is getting done." They are no different than any other RegAF member at that point, especially the ones on T10 orders.
03-08-2015, 11:23 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Originally Posted by Gilligan13
I find it funny that not one person replied to this. I guess it's a new era of airlines
03-08-2015, 12:47 PM
#57
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by Hilltopper89
No. Long term mil leave is a different matter. I have FB friends who are relative new hire/Reserve guys and get tired of seeing all their holiday photos while I have yet to have a holiday off. You can't tell me they're not using mil leave to get days off they couldn't otherwise hold.
03-09-2015, 11:09 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Originally Posted by SteveA
I can't tell you one way or the other, and without knowing the facts I wouldn't try. I do know appearances can be deceiving, and relying on someone's social media account to determine whether or not DOL or airline policy is being violated may not be the best way to figure out what your colleagues are doing. I will say that in today's environment, if you are correct in your accusations, these guys are likely playing with fire. Just my opinion.
03-09-2015, 02:07 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Easy trigger….
I was a guy who was off a lot of Holidays at FedEx and took a LOT of grief for it at FedEx. Here's the real story…
I was in a unit that back-filled the F-15 schoolhouse. Anyone who has done FTU work knows the level is often feast or famine…easy or "holy cow all hands on deck!" Getting leave for the assigned AD guys wasn't easy at times, and part of our "mission" was to back fill to allow these guys who DID NOT live local to take 1-2 weeks a leave over holidays, etc. Not a bad deal for us--we lived there. But for the AD guys trying to visit the parents, in-laws, etc Holiday leave was not automatic. We stepped up and filled in. We didn't work Christmas--nobody did--but I flew the day before and and after a few times to keep the timeline working.
I also volunteered for every Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, and 4th of July fly-by. My avatar is one of these, BTW. A guy working 5 days a week often didn't want to come in on a day off, nor give up a Saturday for a weekend flight. For me--it was easy--I was likely off that T, W, Thurs anyway… So--the TG guys stepped up so the AD guys could have a break now and then. It worked for all of us, and it was also our mission.
Additionally, many of us were 1500-2500 hour IPs. Guess who did a lot of the NVG work, or IP upgrades, etc? The WIC guys owned IPUG, but more often than not the TG and AGR guys with high time did a lot of that work. There were phases (night weeks, AAR, LFEs, etc) when they requested we were there to assist.
Last point…if you are reserve…well…**** you. Ain't no guarantee you will get 1 day off or 10 days off. That TG who is off and junior to you is in fact working, and for every AQP check you get he gets another 2…a mission and an I check. You won't be on reserve forever, and if you bid it hoping for days off I am sorry. I have always been a commuter, so every dollar I earned I earned away from the house. (Moving to Hong Kong and hope that changes, but that's another story….)
In short--these guys may have a good deal. They may not. But they are working two jobs, and at FedEx a few have died doing those jobs on "days off". My take is if its legal and they are serving--they get my thanks. I owe them that, and they owe me---well--nothing.
I was a guy who was off a lot of Holidays at FedEx and took a LOT of grief for it at FedEx. Here's the real story…
I was in a unit that back-filled the F-15 schoolhouse. Anyone who has done FTU work knows the level is often feast or famine…easy or "holy cow all hands on deck!" Getting leave for the assigned AD guys wasn't easy at times, and part of our "mission" was to back fill to allow these guys who DID NOT live local to take 1-2 weeks a leave over holidays, etc. Not a bad deal for us--we lived there. But for the AD guys trying to visit the parents, in-laws, etc Holiday leave was not automatic. We stepped up and filled in. We didn't work Christmas--nobody did--but I flew the day before and and after a few times to keep the timeline working.
I also volunteered for every Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, and 4th of July fly-by. My avatar is one of these, BTW. A guy working 5 days a week often didn't want to come in on a day off, nor give up a Saturday for a weekend flight. For me--it was easy--I was likely off that T, W, Thurs anyway… So--the TG guys stepped up so the AD guys could have a break now and then. It worked for all of us, and it was also our mission.
Additionally, many of us were 1500-2500 hour IPs. Guess who did a lot of the NVG work, or IP upgrades, etc? The WIC guys owned IPUG, but more often than not the TG and AGR guys with high time did a lot of that work. There were phases (night weeks, AAR, LFEs, etc) when they requested we were there to assist.
Last point…if you are reserve…well…**** you. Ain't no guarantee you will get 1 day off or 10 days off. That TG who is off and junior to you is in fact working, and for every AQP check you get he gets another 2…a mission and an I check. You won't be on reserve forever, and if you bid it hoping for days off I am sorry. I have always been a commuter, so every dollar I earned I earned away from the house. (Moving to Hong Kong and hope that changes, but that's another story….)
In short--these guys may have a good deal. They may not. But they are working two jobs, and at FedEx a few have died doing those jobs on "days off". My take is if its legal and they are serving--they get my thanks. I owe them that, and they owe me---well--nothing.
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