Air Reserve Technician or Bum
12-23-2016, 10:27 AM
#41
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
I did meet a ANG AGR who was the AF Attaché in South Africa. If you're ANG, it's worse, hard to move out of state to progress, just wait til an 0-6 dies or retires.
GF
GF
). Heck at this point, my aspirations to go a day past 20 is pretty low. With my prior-e time, that means I would walk out the door with an O-4 retirement. Right now that may just be worth it! This is more of a contingency, but we were recently pinged to see if any of us would care to take a 3 year AD assignment in the Viper (or a staff gig...). It was hard to contain the laughter in the room. I could see how those negotiations would go. ...I'll take Aviano or Spang and no additional duties, just line IP. I'll generally do 4 day work weeks, but since you don't do drill weekend I'll be nice enough to give you every other Friday. Work day starts at 0700 and I'm out the door by 1730. I'll need to be able to take my leave in 2 weeks chunks or a full month. Plus I'll need a ~50k bonus. What's that? ...yes, I understand I still have time on my UPT ADSC.
Originally Posted by TankerDriver
Our HR takes a certificate of graduation of some sort of IP course to justify the GS-13 payscale. Doesn't matter if their current crew position is IP or not. Of course this is our process. So much for standardization...
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
2020...preach on brother!
12-23-2016, 12:36 PM
#42
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
Originally Posted by Gilligan13
Is being an Art that bad or are guys easily swayed to the airlines? I'm surprised people would rather commute then take a full-time spot in the Guard.
GS-13 Step 3 = 102,000
GS-13 Step 5 = 108,000
GS-13 Step 7 = 115,000
GS-13 Step 10 = 124,000
If you're lucky, you may be able to start at GS-13 step 3 or 5. Figuring for dropping a few days of mil leave, a 3 year DAL NB FO (67 hours/month + 16% 401k + 18% PS), will make in the ball park of $165K. In the winter months I average about 12 days at the airline, so I just work mil days on my days off (bumps me up to $175k) and I still work less than days than technicians. I can hold NB Captain, so I ran the same numbers, and it works out to be ~$240k ($253 for the winter bump). You can add guard pay on top of these numbers, but I left them out since they'll be similar for ARTs and part-timers. I have heard rumors of technician bonuses, which will help but not come close in terms of $$$ in your bank.
Couple that with the fact that I fly the same amount as our full-timers and only deal with a fraction of the bs, it's easy to see why guys are swayed. I will say the guys making 300k on 9 days of work are the exception and to the rule.
Note: I don't commute to either job...this makes a yuugggee difference.
12-24-2016, 09:25 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
The ART program just has to go. It's not well suited for our ops tempo and the current airline environment. They've gotten extremely complacent over the past 15 years thinking they had everyone stuck in an ART job. Lot's of leadership were the ART lifers anyway. The problem is they filled ART jobs with furloughed airline pilots who have all gotten their callbacks. They enticed some to stick around for a bit longer by giving them AGR tours or bottomless MPA (which has all but dried up), while us bums sat around waiting for our piece of the pie. Some of these guys were lucky enough to land a 15+ year FERS and 20 yr AD retirement before going back to their carriers. Everyone else had to wait to land a full-time job, but hey, good for them. I don't blame them. I blame management for getting complacent. I blame management for allowing the ARC to get walked all over for the past 15 years and here we are today with a retention problem quite similar to our AD component.
I can confirm they are giving ART bonuses. I recently took one. They come out of your unit's civ-pay pot and can only be given them one year at a time, which is why I took one. I had my reasons, but my long term plan is to go airlines. So I keep my apps updated and bank my bonus for a rainy day.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
I can confirm they are giving ART bonuses. I recently took one. They come out of your unit's civ-pay pot and can only be given them one year at a time, which is why I took one. I had my reasons, but my long term plan is to go airlines. So I keep my apps updated and bank my bonus for a rainy day.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
12-24-2016, 12:26 PM
#45
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
Originally Posted by Gilligan13
Is it tough to keep Agr's? Or are they staying?
Originally Posted by TankerDriver
Some of these guys were lucky enough to land a 15+ year FERS and 20 yr AD retirement before going back to their carriers.
12-25-2016, 08:29 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 523
For those units that have opportunities to bum like C17's are they seeing guys punch for the regionals ASAP? Do they have those one offs who just like bumming and don't have a desire to go to the airlines?
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
06-03-2017, 06:26 PM
#47
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
AFRC now throwing around the idea of back-converting ART-to-AGR. This after the last 6 years of the AGR-to-ART conversion shenanigans that wrecked havoc on the lives and homefront-planning of so many full timers. The irony of it all. Yes, I'm relishing in the vindication, even if the retrofit doesn't occur. They just plain admitted it with this.
I also hear, nothing has got done regarding the proposals to increase -2181 series SSRs to include locality pay (in essence a 15% bump), plus an increase to the retirement multiplier (ATC and LEO get 1.7%). My guess is the whole thing got stonewalled by OPM. Those guys are literally more responsible for the lack of readiness and manning in DOD installations than anything the Taliban or the Iraqi insurgency ever threw at us. What *expletive* team are they on anyways? Sack of make work data-breaching remoras....
It seems this retrofit proposal is in line with an uncooperative civilian federal hiring office from where I sit. I knew they were never going to be able to push those pay increases in this political environment, where every public sector employee is demonized as being part of the fiscal problem. Even wearing a military uniform full time doesn't spare you the wrath of the private industry American worker schadenfreude. In their eyes, anyone with an employer-funded retirement is part of the problem, while they grovel in their manifest destiny income insolvency in their 60s and beyond. And no, mickey mouse 401k match is not bona fide employer-funded retirement, not anymore than my auntie still giving me 23 dollars every Xmas is. Classic "Misery loves company" behavior. I digress.
To be clear, the proposal wasn't bad. A GS-13 with essentially an SSR of 45% bump from the basic GS table (i.e. the current SSR, but not in lieu of locality pay), Tricare elegibility (<--essentially a 500 net/mo payraise) and a 1.4% retirement multiplier (<--this one still blew) is a 'yuge improvement in conditions. As an AGR with a location hardship, I would have taken that if it meant a decent location for my family, as someone not otherwise married to the idea of airline work if say stuck with a high COL commute due to bad hiring timing. Surprise surprise, they knew it was good, so they shelved it. As it stands, no way I can forego an AGR or even the opportunity cost of playing russian roulette with a main-4 airline, for the current ART pay/retirement setup.
Now, the wildcard will be if they actually implement the retrofit. Same logic says they won't, and considering the timeline of airline hiring, they'll continue to bleed folks out of the classic ART jobs, as they are simply noncompetitive in this environment. Too much of a paycut, especially in retirement. Granted, this won't help the folks trying to get hired by the airlines, because they won't touch the AGR until after they get hired, and this will encourage the rate at which newhires drop 5 year MLOA on airlines, which in my personal opinion doesn't help the hiring case for reservist mil applicants coming after them but I digress.
The bleed continues.....
I also hear, nothing has got done regarding the proposals to increase -2181 series SSRs to include locality pay (in essence a 15% bump), plus an increase to the retirement multiplier (ATC and LEO get 1.7%). My guess is the whole thing got stonewalled by OPM. Those guys are literally more responsible for the lack of readiness and manning in DOD installations than anything the Taliban or the Iraqi insurgency ever threw at us. What *expletive* team are they on anyways? Sack of make work data-breaching remoras....
It seems this retrofit proposal is in line with an uncooperative civilian federal hiring office from where I sit. I knew they were never going to be able to push those pay increases in this political environment, where every public sector employee is demonized as being part of the fiscal problem. Even wearing a military uniform full time doesn't spare you the wrath of the private industry American worker schadenfreude. In their eyes, anyone with an employer-funded retirement is part of the problem, while they grovel in their manifest destiny income insolvency in their 60s and beyond. And no, mickey mouse 401k match is not bona fide employer-funded retirement, not anymore than my auntie still giving me 23 dollars every Xmas is. Classic "Misery loves company" behavior. I digress.
To be clear, the proposal wasn't bad. A GS-13 with essentially an SSR of 45% bump from the basic GS table (i.e. the current SSR, but not in lieu of locality pay), Tricare elegibility (<--essentially a 500 net/mo payraise) and a 1.4% retirement multiplier (<--this one still blew) is a 'yuge improvement in conditions. As an AGR with a location hardship, I would have taken that if it meant a decent location for my family, as someone not otherwise married to the idea of airline work if say stuck with a high COL commute due to bad hiring timing. Surprise surprise, they knew it was good, so they shelved it. As it stands, no way I can forego an AGR or even the opportunity cost of playing russian roulette with a main-4 airline, for the current ART pay/retirement setup.
Now, the wildcard will be if they actually implement the retrofit. Same logic says they won't, and considering the timeline of airline hiring, they'll continue to bleed folks out of the classic ART jobs, as they are simply noncompetitive in this environment. Too much of a paycut, especially in retirement. Granted, this won't help the folks trying to get hired by the airlines, because they won't touch the AGR until after they get hired, and this will encourage the rate at which newhires drop 5 year MLOA on airlines, which in my personal opinion doesn't help the hiring case for reservist mil applicants coming after them but I digress.
The bleed continues.....
Just curious if the ARTs out there have heard anything new lately? We had the ART bonus (25%) signed 3-4 weeks ago but have not seen it in our paychecks yet. Still not sure if 25% is of base (or total) salary. It was initially declined for GS 12's but later signed after some calls were made. That initial denial said a lot to me as most our GS 12s have thousands of PIC hours since they came from other MWS's. As for the other initiatives proposed back in Sep 16, we've heard nothing except through our "black channel spies" over at AFRC and the NAF. As of about 3 weeks ago, we heard that AFRC is close with the locality add-in, and that we might see it by next CY. And then we also heard AFRC added in an new initiative, which was not previously announced. And that was to start all 2181's (minus baby ARTs) as GS-13s and do away with the GS-12. But like everything else in AFRC, I'll believe that when I see it. I heard the LEO/ATC retirement match was DOA almost as soon as it went forward. It sounded like the TRS proposal is in a similar boat...or sinking boat I should say. Not to sound too ungrateful, I'm appreciative of the bonus (assuming it comes) but what frustrates me is that we've received zero updates out of AFRC/A3 on the other initiatives. I mean come on, it's been 8 months. Even if nothing has moved very far, just let folks know you're still fighting, is it really that tough to provide a quick status update every six months? And IMO, this lack of comm only strengthens the conspiracy theory floating around that the Sep 16 proposals were simply a carrot being dangled...nothing more. The fact that AFRC can't acknowledge that they have a trust problem is absurd.
Bottom line, I keep my apps updated, nothing has changed my view that senior leadership is completely clueless and will continue to push good folks out. I'd like to find a reason to stay, I love the unit/mission/local peps. But the fact is that everyday I ask myself if I'd ever want my boss's job if/when the time comes. And the answer is always a resounding.....HELLLL NO! Even he says the ART program is broken, or to use his words "it's a 1960s model used to address 2017 issues".
06-04-2017, 08:13 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by stlpilot
Thread revival.
Just curious if the ARTs out there have heard anything new lately? We had the ART bonus (25%) signed 3-4 weeks ago but have not seen it in our paychecks yet. Still not sure if 25% is of base (or total) salary. It was initially declined for GS 12's but later signed after some calls were made. That initial denial said a lot to me as most our GS 12s have thousands of PIC hours since they came from other MWS's. As for the other initiatives proposed back in Sep 16, we've heard nothing except through our "black channel spies" over at AFRC and the NAF. As of about 3 weeks ago, we heard that AFRC is close with the locality add-in, and that we might see it by next CY. And then we also heard AFRC added in an new initiative, which was not previously announced. And that was to start all 2181's (minus baby ARTs) as GS-13s and do away with the GS-12. But like everything else in AFRC, I'll believe that when I see it. I heard the LEO/ATC retirement match was DOA almost as soon as it went forward. It sounded like the TRS proposal is in a similar boat...or sinking boat I should say. Not to sound too ungrateful, I'm appreciative of the bonus (assuming it comes) but what frustrates me is that we've received zero updates out of AFRC/A3 on the other initiatives. I mean come on, it's been 8 months. Even if nothing has moved very far, just let folks know you're still fighting, is it really that tough to provide a quick status update every six months? And IMO, this lack of comm only strengthens the conspiracy theory floating around that the Sep 16 proposals were simply a carrot being dangled...nothing more. The fact that AFRC can't acknowledge that they have a trust problem is absurd.
Bottom line, I keep my apps updated, nothing has changed my view that senior leadership is completely clueless and will continue to push good folks out. I'd like to find a reason to stay, I love the unit/mission/local peps. But the fact is that everyday I ask myself if I'd ever want my boss's job if/when the time comes. And the answer is always a resounding.....HELLLL NO! Even he says the ART program is broken, or to use his words "it's a 1960s model used to address 2017 issues".
Just curious if the ARTs out there have heard anything new lately? We had the ART bonus (25%) signed 3-4 weeks ago but have not seen it in our paychecks yet. Still not sure if 25% is of base (or total) salary. It was initially declined for GS 12's but later signed after some calls were made. That initial denial said a lot to me as most our GS 12s have thousands of PIC hours since they came from other MWS's. As for the other initiatives proposed back in Sep 16, we've heard nothing except through our "black channel spies" over at AFRC and the NAF. As of about 3 weeks ago, we heard that AFRC is close with the locality add-in, and that we might see it by next CY. And then we also heard AFRC added in an new initiative, which was not previously announced. And that was to start all 2181's (minus baby ARTs) as GS-13s and do away with the GS-12. But like everything else in AFRC, I'll believe that when I see it. I heard the LEO/ATC retirement match was DOA almost as soon as it went forward. It sounded like the TRS proposal is in a similar boat...or sinking boat I should say. Not to sound too ungrateful, I'm appreciative of the bonus (assuming it comes) but what frustrates me is that we've received zero updates out of AFRC/A3 on the other initiatives. I mean come on, it's been 8 months. Even if nothing has moved very far, just let folks know you're still fighting, is it really that tough to provide a quick status update every six months? And IMO, this lack of comm only strengthens the conspiracy theory floating around that the Sep 16 proposals were simply a carrot being dangled...nothing more. The fact that AFRC can't acknowledge that they have a trust problem is absurd.
Bottom line, I keep my apps updated, nothing has changed my view that senior leadership is completely clueless and will continue to push good folks out. I'd like to find a reason to stay, I love the unit/mission/local peps. But the fact is that everyday I ask myself if I'd ever want my boss's job if/when the time comes. And the answer is always a resounding.....HELLLL NO! Even he says the ART program is broken, or to use his words "it's a 1960s model used to address 2017 issues".
All of our GS-12's were converted *back* to 13's a while ago. I'd say at least 1.5-2 yrs ago. A lot of those guys are still bitter because they didn't remain at the same step level after the conversion despite their time in service.
Bottom line: the ART program is a failure for pilots and noone cared when the airline industry was in the crapper. Unfortunately the people who had the power to do anything about it were either guys on furlough waiting for their callback or guys who already made the decision to be full-time lifers, some of which were grandfathered into the CSRS retirement program. The rest of us are talking with our feet in the wake of limp reaction to the mass exodus.
The ART program could be much better for dual-status technicians in the pilot series. We could have a a retirement like ATC/LEO's. We could be allowed to use Tricare Reserve Select. We could get more military leave or special pays for long days vs. Comp Time. The sky's the limit. They just don't want to lobby for it and even if they are, it's about 10 yrs too late.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
06-04-2017, 11:04 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
It's the same contemptuous attitude regAF has. That is, the idea they don't want to lock-in future legacy labor costs if they can just hold off long enough for the next "airline downturn" to cause guys to scurry back to the mother teet for pennies on the dollar, aka the present ART job construct. Literally "run the clock" offense while down 20 points.
The ART side also has the additional pressure of having OPM involved, and those guys think of you no higher/different than some Air and Marine GS-paycut doing overtime circles in the sky for straight pay.
Again, how you fix this overnight, from the perspective of an AGR mind you:
^GS-13 plus 558 SSR plus locality pay all-in.
^1.7% multiplier with vesting as short as LEO and retro to 0.8% vesting yearly fee (not that 4.4% garbage).
^TRS eligibility (screw FEHB).
Boom. Manning shortage solved. Never gonna happen, but it's not for lack of understanding of the metrics. Just lack of political courage. Bunch of green-slide sycophants. Eat cake then AFRC.
The ART side also has the additional pressure of having OPM involved, and those guys think of you no higher/different than some Air and Marine GS-paycut doing overtime circles in the sky for straight pay.
Again, how you fix this overnight, from the perspective of an AGR mind you:
^GS-13 plus 558 SSR plus locality pay all-in.
^1.7% multiplier with vesting as short as LEO and retro to 0.8% vesting yearly fee (not that 4.4% garbage).
^TRS eligibility (screw FEHB).
Boom. Manning shortage solved. Never gonna happen, but it's not for lack of understanding of the metrics. Just lack of political courage. Bunch of green-slide sycophants. Eat cake then AFRC.
06-04-2017, 02:47 PM
#50
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by stlpilot
Thread revival.
Just curious if the ARTs out there have heard anything new lately? We had the ART bonus (25%) signed 3-4 weeks ago but have not seen it in our paychecks yet. Still not sure if 25% is of base (or total) salary. It was initially declined for GS 12's but later signed after some calls were made. That initial denial said a lot to me as most our GS 12s have thousands of PIC hours since they came from other MWS's. As for the other initiatives proposed back in Sep 16, we've heard nothing except through our "black channel spies" over at AFRC and the NAF. As of about 3 weeks ago, we heard that AFRC is close with the locality add-in, and that we might see it by next CY. And then we also heard AFRC added in an new initiative, which was not previously announced. And that was to start all 2181's (minus baby ARTs) as GS-13s and do away with the GS-12. But like everything else in AFRC, I'll believe that when I see it. I heard the LEO/ATC retirement match was DOA almost as soon as it went forward. It sounded like the TRS proposal is in a similar boat...or sinking boat I should say. Not to sound too ungrateful, I'm appreciative of the bonus (assuming it comes) but what frustrates me is that we've received zero updates out of AFRC/A3 on the other initiatives. I mean come on, it's been 8 months. Even if nothing has moved very far, just let folks know you're still fighting, is it really that tough to provide a quick status update every six months? And IMO, this lack of comm only strengthens the conspiracy theory floating around that the Sep 16 proposals were simply a carrot being dangled...nothing more. The fact that AFRC can't acknowledge that they have a trust problem is absurd.
Bottom line, I keep my apps updated, nothing has changed my view that senior leadership is completely clueless and will continue to push good folks out. I'd like to find a reason to stay, I love the unit/mission/local peps. But the fact is that everyday I ask myself if I'd ever want my boss's job if/when the time comes. And the answer is always a resounding.....HELLLL NO! Even he says the ART program is broken, or to use his words "it's a 1960s model used to address 2017 issues".
Just curious if the ARTs out there have heard anything new lately? We had the ART bonus (25%) signed 3-4 weeks ago but have not seen it in our paychecks yet. Still not sure if 25% is of base (or total) salary. It was initially declined for GS 12's but later signed after some calls were made. That initial denial said a lot to me as most our GS 12s have thousands of PIC hours since they came from other MWS's. As for the other initiatives proposed back in Sep 16, we've heard nothing except through our "black channel spies" over at AFRC and the NAF. As of about 3 weeks ago, we heard that AFRC is close with the locality add-in, and that we might see it by next CY. And then we also heard AFRC added in an new initiative, which was not previously announced. And that was to start all 2181's (minus baby ARTs) as GS-13s and do away with the GS-12. But like everything else in AFRC, I'll believe that when I see it. I heard the LEO/ATC retirement match was DOA almost as soon as it went forward. It sounded like the TRS proposal is in a similar boat...or sinking boat I should say. Not to sound too ungrateful, I'm appreciative of the bonus (assuming it comes) but what frustrates me is that we've received zero updates out of AFRC/A3 on the other initiatives. I mean come on, it's been 8 months. Even if nothing has moved very far, just let folks know you're still fighting, is it really that tough to provide a quick status update every six months? And IMO, this lack of comm only strengthens the conspiracy theory floating around that the Sep 16 proposals were simply a carrot being dangled...nothing more. The fact that AFRC can't acknowledge that they have a trust problem is absurd.
Bottom line, I keep my apps updated, nothing has changed my view that senior leadership is completely clueless and will continue to push good folks out. I'd like to find a reason to stay, I love the unit/mission/local peps. But the fact is that everyday I ask myself if I'd ever want my boss's job if/when the time comes. And the answer is always a resounding.....HELLLL NO! Even he says the ART program is broken, or to use his words "it's a 1960s model used to address 2017 issues".
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
