Low time Mil - where to place my bets?
 

Hello all - apologies for another "what about me" post. I've been reading searching for about 4 months, and haven't quite put my finger on what my best option(s) are. At this point I've gotten myself into a PIO of indecision - there are a lot of good ideas and options out there, I'm just not sure I'm looking in all the right places.

The favorite option of Hong straight to my last job just isn't feasible. I don't have the time. 970hours ME jet PIC time, all T-38 and F-15. Mix in my GA and T-34 time and I'm at 1200 TT. Based on research, my resume will be "pretty," but ultimately useless at this point based on hours.

For resume fodder: approaching 22 years active USAF with the first 10 enlisted: 1.5 in maintenance, 8.5 enlisted crew on AC-130 (2000 hrs/940 combat,) and from 2005 to present - pilot training pipeline to F-15. Weapons officer/IP, SEFE, Operational Test Pilot.

Staring at retirement but unqualified for the airlines (FedEx, primarily - but haven't ruled out pax carriers,) I'll be going to the ANG instead to continue building hours. Here's the rub - is that the best plan? Suck it up with a regional (if I can even get hired there?) Does the SIC time as an FO even buy me anything, really, other than getting rid of the ATP restriction for total time? Look at corporate?

I know there's no shortcut to the hours, just wondering if there are options I'm not thinking about. I've ponied up for Emerald Coast so that I'm at least prepped when the time comes, just wondering what the experienced think about the situation.

Cheers!

I know a guy who has a restricted ATP, lots of backseat fighter time, few hundred up front, got out with less than 500 mil hours (plus 1200 or so backseat), got on with SkyWest, and after a few months got a call from AA (prior to even having 1500 hours). Just go to a regional for 3-12 months and you will be at a legacy in no time. Regionals pay more than a lot of places first year right now, too.

Don't slit your wrists by limiting options to just fedex. They're all good jobs.

Bottom line, apply to everyone. If a regional calls first, go. Slum it out, fatten the logbook and keep applying. A year or two in an RJ will go a long way for professional development as well as flight time.

Promising words guys, thanks for the thoughts. Definitely not limiting options to a single employer, I'm not exactly in the position to "pick."

Generally, my plan has never changed that when the apps go active, it will be to FedEx, Delta, United and AA.

After reading the regional forum, I don't dare ask the "which regional" question. From what I see the RJ job is a storm to weather. Though I don't see a sane argument against 121 time being a good thing.

whichever regional allows you to drive to work

Exactly what I was going to post. Don't commute to a regional job unless you have no choice. You've got all the right boxes (yeah I said it) checked... you just need total time.

Don't forget UPS and SWA. SWA may not be the greatest at first glance but they just passed a pretty lucrative contract.

If you've got the time in to get an AD retirement- retire now! Don't go to the guard and push off that pension for another 20 years just so you can get 100hrs a year in a grey airplane.

Retire now, and collect a pension. Go to the regionals or with your background, one of the ISR contractors and start getting more multi-turbine time under your belt. ISR pays 3X as much as the regionals starting out and you log about half Multi-PIC-Turbine after you qualify (which is often in your first 30 days). Regionals you've got to have a min of 1000 part 121 SIC and 2500TT and the right seniority number to upgrade but once you do it's all part 121 PIC.

Different ways to skin the cat flying wise but don't defer the pension 20 years for a small # of flight hours and a lot of bull****. If you're not ready emotionally to leave the military go do ISR until you're ready to go to the airlines. Otherwise that Pension will sustain you in first year pay wherever you go.

Don't rule out the defense industry (Lockheed, Northrop, Boeing, etc.); with your background and clearance you can find lucrative jobs.

If you're willing to be away from home for a bit, there are ISR contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan that will pay 6 figures and allow you to build time more quickly.

You'll have a shorter career than the younger guys. So quicker retirments is something to consider. AA has the most retirements, especially in the near term. A 45/46 year old's final retirement numbers would be approx 1700 @AA, 2500@DL, and 2700-2800@ UA.

DL and FedEx have had rapid upgrades. Will that continue? Surges often stop suddenly once the early movers grab the spots.

AA is looking at 6-7 year upgrades for guys hired today. Even the most senior base will only take an additional 1-2 years to upgrade because retirements will exceed 900/yr then.

You've got the resume but are lacking TT. Retire and join the check a month club. Get on with Piedmont/PHL or Endeveavo/LGA and learn larger jet/crew ops, civilian flying, 121, high density ops, all weather ops, etc, etc. Everyone learns something in a new job. Broaden your base of knowledge and experience and the next step gets easier.

Go to the big job fairs - NGPA, WAI, OBAP. Show your face. Matter of fact WAI is in March. Every airline and commuter will be there.

Remember we don't pick them, they pick us. It's probably a 1-3 year window for you.

Good luck.

Pretty cool career you had there. Congrats.

I think regional with some ANG for sanity and help with crappy 1st year pay/schedule would get you to a major soonest. Or go full bore regional, youll get 1500 in no time.

Commuting sucks. Doing it for first year regional pay would be awful

First year, with bonuses, is $50-60K. Add in retirement pay, and no health care costs, and it's an easier pill to swallow.

Pretty sure you can't collect a regular component retirement check AND be in the guard. I could be wrong. No need to go guard really...just get the retirement check and work the regional.

Regional is definitely the answer.

You will get most of what you need to move on to the majors in 12-18 months.

If you need a rec at Piedmont/PHL let me know. A mil bud of mine did 20 years then a regional gig for a year and got hired at UPS. Piedmont will be around 60k with the bonus.

At a minimum, as everyone has stated, apply to the regional of your choice. Chances they'll call in days.

Having balanced the regional/ANG career, I would say the sanity will still be lost, if he goes to the ANG. The ANG is great but not what it once was...right now, my 20 can't get here fast enough.

I would take the retirement check/healthcare and go to the regionals. We had 2 retired mil guys in my class that took this route. One spent about 10 months on the line and the other was hired within a month of finishing training, at their respective regionals. Also, with many offering bonuses + 1st year pay + mil pension isn't a bad income.

As other have said, go to the regional that doesn't require a commute. Living in base is almost like having an entirely different job. I would keep this in mind when applying to the majors as well. Sure apply everywhere, but if you have the opportunity to live in base, that would be my first choice.

I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said. If you can retire, then do it and walk away from the military. The ANG will not buy you much of anything to help you reach your goal that flying for a regional can't do better.

The ISR gigs are not a bad route for building time quickly, but research those heavily before signing on. One of the great things about being out of the military is not being gone for long stints of time. With the ISRs you will be doing deployments again. The regionals have pretty long training periods you will be away from home initially and some trips are as long as 6 days (worst I've heard of, most are 4 or less), but that still beats being gone for a month at a time if you have little ones.

As far as which airline to choose, it really comes down to what is a priority to you and which ones offer that priority the best. Most folks will list base location, quality of life, and 1st year pay near the time of their list. Fast upgrade, flow to a major, and sometimes what they fly can be considerations as well. Decide what factors are important to you and then figure out what airline offers them the best.

Being able to drive to work is huge, especially if you are junior sitting reserve. Living within two hours of your base sitting at home getting paid is great vs having to commute to another city to sit in a crash pad or kill time someplace else. The commutes also can eat into your time off depending on how easy or hard it is. Having to commute in the day before a trip starts really kills your down time.

All the best in what ever you end up deciding.

This, 100 times

Many thanks, folks - the info and effort to respond is much appreciated. The regional aspect/option just surfaced recently but is quickly gaining momentum. There is one wildcard with the ANG; but I doubt it changes anyone's advice!

The ANG (depending on the state) seems to be in a near panic to avoid the active duty's 11F issues. I've been extended an offer for a letter of indispensability - meaning, retire and start drawing as normal, then right back as a part timer as able. Green bag flying? Normal DSG pay. No green bag that day? Draw retirement. Still promote, can still hold any temp full time status, pension is recalculated to include "counter" days of service once you retire....again?

Regardless, I can't find any reason not to push the retire button. 22 years is enough, and from here forward its just delaying my next/last job. At least in my opinion.

I'm not super keen on the ISR gig; that place has seen enough of me. Sure, I may be guessing wrong - but I'd rather take my lumps for a bit in the regional world to get hours than get back into rotations back to the armpit of the world. (Then again - if I didn't get hired, I'm not saying never.)

Hope I'm not missing any points of posts that were made. Again, it's all very much appreciated. Questions on the regional act:
- Reading APC would lead one to believe that being hooked to a car battery is a better option than any regional. (Of course, according to the same forum - AA might be worse and DAL/UA/FedEx are not far behind.) Is there a general consensus of which regional to look at? (Pretty presumptuous to assume I get to pick, I know.)
- Bonus got mentioned once or twice. Hard to imagine a guy who (best case) walks out after a few months to a major getting a bonus? I don't think I can count on that one if things go well.

I won't even start yet with which major to think - mostly because I mostly hear "pick your domicile and go for it." The wife and I make a different decision al,oust daily on where we'd like to live. We love too many different places!

Yeah....we're military brainwashed. Not living under the assumption we're moving in 3 years anyway makes all of these decisions pretty heavy. But I'm looking forward to it, best believe...

I hear you about this. I'm a little over a year out from retirement, and I grew up as a military brat. Moving to a new place in a couple of years has been my entire life. Even though deep down I know I want to settle down, this is freaking me the hell out. The idea that we're going to pick a place and plan to stay there and...that's it. That scares the crap out of me (but seems perfectly normal to my wife).

I don't think you're guessing wrong on either of those.

The regionals are the way to go to get to a major IF you can afford to weather the financial storm associated with going to one. The landscape is a lot better now ($55k+ starting pay) than it was 18 months ago ($25k- starting pay). A pension makes regional starting pay livable, and 121 experience will get you to the show faster than ISR in most cases.

Well, I think you will pretty much have your pick, to be honest. It is a buyer's market, and you are a highly desirable pilot for a regional to hire (if you do your part and prepare for the interviews, obviously). I totally agree with @Otterbox that time at a regional will get you to the show faster than an ISR/contractor gig.

Flying for a regional doesn't have to suck. I retired non-current, spent just over a year flying for a regional, and moved on to a career airline this year. I actually really enjoyed the time I flew at my regional -- I tell folks, "I liked every day except payday." You'll learn a ton about civilian and 121 flying, and if you have the right attitude, it can be a fun time. Adapting to a multi-pilot, rigidly scripted CRM environment can be an adjustment for a fighter dude, especially, and a regional is basically a stigma-free environment to get that professional development that will pay big dividends at your career airline. I really enjoyed the Captains and FAs I flew with, and had plenty of fun on the road. Mostly, I learned that I really enjoyed the airline lifestyle and the freedom it allows compared to the military life. There is real life beyond Big Blue, and it is good!

Your going-in argument is going to have to include you being emotionally and financially prepared for 12-24 months of flying at a regional before a better offer at a "career destination" comes along. It may very well occur much faster than that, but if you're prepared for a 2-year tour you won't be disappointed if it takes that long. Even for guys with hot resumes, there is a long lead time between application, interview, and starting class at a major airline job, so you may be flying at a regional for a while while that process proceeds for you.

Second, realize that your priorities in a regional job are going to be different than most straight civilian dudes going to the regionals. You want to get in, get 121 training/R-ATP/type rating on your resume, and get your hours up over the 1,500 hour unrestricted ATP hump, and later continue to build total time. It is a (hopefully) short-term proposition that has a good long-term prospect as a backup.

So, I'd look at these three things, in this order:
1. Commute/junior bases
2. Upgrade times
3. Pay/bonuses

Commute: In my opinion, the #1 quality of life impact for a short-termer at the regionals like you. Commutes aren't *necessarily* that much of a hassle, but they can be a total nightmare if the circumstances are wrong. Most importantly, over time they represent time away from home that you are not paid for. Where are you planning on living? Look at the junior bases for each of the regionals and see what's close to where you are living. I'd avoid a 2-leg commute like the plague, and look for a city pair that has maybe 5-10 flights between them per day, preferably on more than one airline. An easy commute can substantially make your life less painful. A tough commute can make an otherwise good job miserable.

Now, for these next two, some folks might disagree. There are good arguments for pay to be more important than upgrades, too, but in my opinion you are at a regional for the *experience* and not the money, and thus the priority I present:

Upgrade times: Every fighter pilot knows that every gameplan needs a "plan B", and upgrading to Captain is your Plan B in the unlikely event you don't get the call from a career airline in two years. Unfortunately, The PIC time offered by upgrading to Captain at a regional might matter to your resume. You are oh-so-close to that magic number of 1,000 hours of multi-engine PIC as it sits. I'm not sure if that will be a show-stopper; FedEx this year dropped the 1K TPIC as a requirement (but it is still highly desired) and reports say SWA is on the verge of dropping its TPIC requirement, too. Plus, Captain pay at the regionals is generally financially sustainable over time (especially if augmented by mil retirement). If you have to be stuck at a regional, not continuing to dig your family into a financial hole is obviously desirable. The point, here, is to have a quick-ish upgrade time in your back pocket, just in case.

Pay/bonuses: What's great is that you will have a military retirement to bolster your income, so pay shouldn't be as vital as it might to a guy who doesn't have that extra 3K/month rolling in. You'll have to look at each airline's bonus agreements; some of them require you to be there for year after year to get the full amount. The good news is that as the pilot supply situation gets more dire for the regionals, these bonuses are likely to increase at places that currently have them, or be added at airlines that don't have them. In my opinion, the pay is worth considering, but only should be a go/no-go item between airlines that otherwise evenly matched in terms of commute and upgrade.

X-factor: Flow agreements or preferred-interview programs. In my opinion, these are sucker bets for a military-trained and experienced pilot. You won't have any problem eventually getting hired at a legacy, so don't fall for the "you never have to interview again!" hype; you are not really the target audience for the benefits of a flow agreement. Still, it is a perfectly valid "plan C" for if all else falls through with your career plans.

I'm not sure which airlines still require 1000 PIC multi turbine but there is probably an additive for military flight time so your 970 ME PIC turbine is well over 1000 with the conversion! I agree, go fly jets at a good Regional and I predict you won't be there much more than a year! You'll start off with the Restricted ATP but that will be upgraded quickly and you'll have your pick.

I think only SWA/UPS have the 1k turb pic requirement fwiw.

Well, this is pretty much gold. Thanks to all, again!

Thanks Hacker, that confirms a lot of assumptions based on my homework - just better organized and well put. Of course, that opens a few more questions.

I've been a hard lean to the mindset of: this is temporary (actual time required TBD) and domicile has to be at the top of the list. Upgrade time definitely a consideration, I need the PIC time as well. Those lead me to a regional with northwestern bases. I'll be living in southern Oregon and a commute to the northeast would be crushing. That leads to....Horizon and PenAir first with Horizon in the hunt if I considered only domiciles. Medford 1, Boise/PDX tied at 2, Spokane 3, Seattle 4 and the rest a wash.

The problem is, Horizon and PenAir are turboprop, with Skywest at third due to domiciles. So the questions: is turboprop actually a "problem"? Seems like it would be, but that's pure guess. I haven't seen much on PenAir, but the horizon guys talk of the company as satan; not much different with Skywest.

Thoughts here?

Simply put, no. The majors don't care.

They especially won't care since you have tons of high performance military jet PIC time as the core of your experience.

Even without that, though, the majors see 121 flight time as 121 flight time, and really don't care what type of aircraft that took place in.

Since you are a PNW guy, don't forget to look at Compass and SkyWest, both of which have west coast bases that are relatively junior.

The airline picks you, you don't pick them. You really hope your top choice chooses you but I doubt most get hired by their first choice. Then you pick a domicile, at the airline that hires you, or make the decision to commute.

And keep applying to #1 if 'not #1' hires you. A bunch of guys get additional calls after getting their first job. It's like the various hiring models seem to like the same candidates at times.

The biggest bases tend to be senior. Typically has all the flying, especially the best flying. But driving to work, even at a senior base, is a huge QWL event.

The lowest fighter TT guy that I've seen had about 1,500 hrs when he got hired. There were several 1500-2000 hr fighter guys hired. Lower might get hired but I don't recall seeing those resumes. Do you might need 500(?) more hrs to reach the low bar???

I'd plan for a possible three year path. It might take less but three years would get you, IMO, solidly into the hiring pool.