Bail at 17 Years Active USMC?
 

The idea of leaving active duty for an active reserve or active guard job crossed my mind years ago but never this late in the game. Recently my buddy mentioned leaving active duty for an Air Force Reserve (full time) or Air National Guard job (full time). He is stuck at a desk in a staff job for his remaining time (no fault of his own). We know a few guys that did this around years 10-12 YCS. One flying heavies and one flying RPAs. I'm trying to figure out if I should talk my buddy off the wall or join him on it. Flying anything besides a desk sounds more appealing. I know there would be an enormous amount of paperwork from my prior research. There are some openings on usajobs but they don't go into too many details. I've heard of guys "rushing" the prospective squadron and read the Gold to Silver document on baseops.net.

Does anyone have any experience in this area, this late in the game?

If one were to do this, would the guard or AF reserve time (full time) allow them to retire at 20 YCS if they chose to retire? Would they receive retirement pay upon retirement or have to wait?

We are both helicopter pilots and have heard of the Envoy RTP.

Thanks, have a great New Year

If you accumulate 20 years total active duty service (not counting certain short-term reserve duty), then you are immediately eligible for a full active retirement. AGR would count for that.

You have to have reach 6 years of Reserve service before reaching 28 years of commisioned service. Likely you must make LTC to do that in the AF. Guys have done it and one friend claims it will pay to do so,

GF

Navy is eight years reserve service for a reserve retirement. For a late AC to RC transition that means you need to make O5 (or have prior enlisted service).

But regular retirement eligibility is achieved immediately upon reaching 20 years cumulative active duty, regardless of which components you served in or your status when you hit 20.

So if you transition AC to traditional (part time) RC you would need to serve eight years in the RC in order to be eligible for the reserve retirement at age 60.

If you transition AC to full time reserve/guard, then you'll still get the regular AC retirement at 20.

Reserve components don't usually want folks dropping in for a couple years and then getting a regular AC retirement. The navy reserve goes to great lengths to ensure RC folks don't hit 20 cumulative active years, since they have to pay your retirement in that case.

But title 10 pretty much ensures that if you hit 20 active, you're eligible for a regular AC retirement immediately.

Rickair7777,

Agree with what you said, it's been awhile since I've had to deal with it. Yes'm the Reserve components don't like to have AD drop in near sanctuary.

GF

Thanks for the feedback. Agreed about the new guy showing up in sanctuary. If I were in a flying billet at a duty station near where I live I would have no problem staying in past 20 in a full time status.

I'm not Guard / Reserve guy, but from the bro's it seems like AGR flying jobs are typically rare. You are more likely to get hired by a unit for an ART/TR. If you would like to continue flying it seems like a good idea. I would do it.

I personally wouldn't punch at the 17 year point. Lotsa uncertainty with the economy in future and thus the airline industry. 3 years gets you a check that will pay for the roof over your head for life... regardless of what's going on in the aviation industry.

Generally I would agree.

But airline hiring, driven by pilot demographics, will be unprecedented for the next decade, even if no economic growth occurs.

Tow scenarios where I would punch at > 15 years:

1. What the OP is talking about. Dodging a twilight desk tour for a flying job as a full-time guard/reserve (not an option in the Navy/USMC for someone that senior). Best of both worlds, get the retirement and then be current for the majors.

2. Job offer in hand at FDX/UPS/Big Three. Join the reserves and do eight years for the reserve retirement. For someone who had close to 20 AD the ultimate paycheck (delayed to age 60) will be pretty close to a regular AD 20 year check. You'll have military medical available in some form forever if desired. The trick with this option is timing...you might need a formal sep date to get a job offer, so you would probably need to take a leap of faith. Reasonable risk for someone with eminent qualifications in today's environment. If you you're relatively weak compared to peers, or have a black mark this might not be a great idea.

Worst case do 20, go to a regional or LCC for a year or three for currency and then get on with the bigs.

As for the economy...there's nothing really wrong with it structurally. Wall street didn't seem to mind the Nov results. There are the inevitable cycles but I'm not aware of any looming catastrophes.

I separated from AD at just under 17 years in 2012 to take an ART flying command position. At the time it made the most sense - I planned on an AF career and wanted to keep flying. I felt the AF Reserve would give me the best opportunity. Two years later I took an AGR staff job. I felt it would help career plans and allow me to "bank" 20 years of AD time when/if I wanted to retire completely. Shortly after that I started to consider the airlines more so put my apps out. Got a call from a legacy and got a job offer (after 2 years of non-flying). Separated from my AGR tour at ... wait for it ... 19 years total AD time.

However, the only reason I was comfortable in doing so is because I was able to stay on as an IMA/part timer in my current position, with a healthy man day budget, and a strong likelihood of a return to AD on mil leave for a period of time in the near future.

Those mil/airline guys who I tell the story to agree it was a smart move. Hopefully it works out. I tell you this mainly because every situation is different. Research as best you can but none of us can safely see the future. Determine your own personal level of risk you can afford to take and never shut any doors.

The previous post is correct about treating high-AD time reservists differently when it comes to AD retirements. I've heard the same data about the Navy as previously posted - they generally frown on it. On the other hand, historically the AF Reserve has been very good about it. 20 years AD is 20 years, they won't stand in the way of an assignment to prevent having to pay for that retirement.

My understanding as well, USAF and Army will not treat you differently just because you're pushing 20. The Navy has formal procedures to try and prevent any reservist from reaching sanctuary. The only way around it is generally to already be on orders as you approach 18, and then request a waiver to extend the orders (endorsed by a fleet commander or equivalent flag). I've seen it happen but only for overseas hardship type tours.

The AD military does a pretty good job convincing people that it (the military) is the only show in town, and that no other job could ever offer what it does. Then it takes pilots and dumps them behind a desk forwarding e-mail and maintaining pointless spreadsheets of unimportant information. I can't imagine that being willing to spend 5+ years not flying is a great career move for someone who wants to fly for a living.

Don't just walk away--run.

rick,
Can you provide the reference for the Navy requiring 8 years of Reserve service to get the reserve retirement? I'm going to be just under 13yrs Active. I couldn't find anything in Title 10 that indicates 8 years reserve are needed.

If the 8 year thing is true, are you implying that it would be possible that if I failed to select to O-5, they would force me to retire at 20 yrs, but not have the full 8 years in the reserves to get the reserve retirement?

I'm pretty sure that's old gouge:
Retired Pay

Used to be you had a lookback of 6 (Army) or 8 years (I had heard the Navy) of continuous reserve component duty to be able to transfer to retired reserve. Congress got rid of that rule in 2005.

Do it, get a line number, and hop back in for 3 years. Guys in my unit are doing it. Works great.

You're right, I wasn't aware that they changed the rule but I confirmed it with my reserve admin folks. This means anyone who makes at least O4 and serves continuously in any combination of AC/RC for 20 should earn at least a reserve retirement.

That used to be the case, but the rule was changed (see above).

Among these lines, in my experience, the navy reserve has always granted HYT waivers to folks who got close to retirement but were going to be forced out. Nice policy, but I wouldn't hang my hat on the ability to get a waiver.

Julio,

I've heard of AF pilots doing what you wrote, not Marines at 17 years commissioned service (YCS). The USMC has different regulations about going to the USMC active reserves. I'm too senior at this point.

The trick in my case would be:

-Finding a billet in my area

-Finding a squadron that would take a helicopter pilot and allow him to convert to a FW platform.

-Navigating the Gold to Silver transition (USMC to AF)

-Finding an AF active reserve flying billet (not Air Reserve Technition "ART" job, ART's would have a reserve retirement and receive benefits ~ 60 years old)

-Or find an active Air National Guard job (title 32 I believe)

-Be able to retire at or around 20 YCS and receive benefits immediately upon retirement.

Basically to have your cake and eat it too.

I appreciate all of the feedback.

My other option is to:

-Live where I want in this non flying staff job

-Get my MBA paid for with TA (won't really help with flying jobs)

-See my family every night

-Fly with a local flying club occasionally

-Keep options open with Envoy RTP (if it's still around then) or Border Patrol when I retire in 2020.

AAron

Most of your options involving a transfer to ANG etc probably would require knowing the right person at the right time with the right connections etc. If you don't have those things and are ready to pull the trigger on it NOW then it probably will take you months if not years to get them. You will never know if you don't try.

If I were in your shoes:

-Stay in your staff job and retire. The check will practically double your Regional Airline salary once you get there.
-Flying club - get your Single Engine CFI/CFII

If you have ANY instructor experience - go get your CFI/CFII in whatever platform you taught. THEN - go get additional instruction at your aero club for a Single Engine CFI Add-On check ride.

Find 2-3 NFOs that want a PPL and buy a C182 together for 20-25 grand each. Provide instruction time to them at their fuel costs. Thats about 30 hours of PIC/Instructor time each plus whatever your fly on your own.

You could probably get a few hundred hours in the next 3 years while on staff and in a better position to jump to an airline.

If you join a Civil Air Patrol squadron they are good for about 40 hours of training time per year after all the red-tape is out of the way.

Never pass up "free" education. You never know when the next furlough is coming or what could happen to your medical.

I'm still AD by the way and leaving from a staff tour at 20.

Edited to add: If this is your first non-flying gig - you might actually fall in love with meetings, regular hours, relatively easy work etc. Its amazing what defense contractors will pay for retiring officers to take this kind of job. Its not hard compared to operational life..and its pretty easy on the family...and you might find flying for fun on the side is "enough". You will be taking a pay cut to get a flying job after you retire...and that pay cut will last awhile since you are coming from the rotary world. Assuming you retire at 42-44 years of age - thats a pay cut for the first 5 years minimum leaving only 15-17 years to be at a flag carrier and only 2-3 years as a topped out FO or Captain. Go run some spreadsheets and take a look at your career earnings. Not trying to dissuade you from a decision but when I first read this post I thought you were leaving as a fixed wing dude that could jump to a regional at 20 years and 1 day to get current and then be at a major within 6 months of retirement.

Thanks for all of the responses. Stability for once is a good thing. I'm going to stay in the staff job and see how it goes. It's awesome to see how other military aviators look out for each other on this forum.

I'm interested to see what my buddy does who is in a similar situation.