Aviation Bonus FY17
 

Any rumors or knowledge of when the FY 17 pilot bonus will drop? Thanks!

Nope, but, you should not sign it....

Keep this in mind--golden handcuffs are still handcuffs.

Only reason to take the bonus in this day and age is if you are prior enlisted and have 15+ years and the ....what I am saying...

The only reason to take the bonus is if you want to stay in the military for a 30 year career and it is your #1 passion. If that is the case...why are you on APC?

I'm a quitter, a proud airline pilot, and a guy who makes money helping folks get ready for the leap.

That said--SOMEBODY has got to stay in go to weapons school, command squadrons, wings, and lead the way. If a guy wants and dreams of that--God bless him and I hope he thrives.

Airline hiring waves do several things. First--they make a lot of quitters happy. They also make guys who want to stay in happy too, because bonuses happen, and maybe your shot at your dream assignment got a little easier.

I got plenty of friends who bailed at the first shot. Some like me did one bonus then bailed. Others went 20, and a few went 20+.

Every single one of them served. That's cool. If a pilot wants to stay--then go be the leader you wanted to work for one day.

Peeking in here is just good business. At least you get a little (if someone skewed) perspective on the other side.

The only problem here is guys who would not have otherwise promoted, promote. The turds float to the top.

I blame leadership that punish "quitters" via final OPR/FITREP.

If a quitter is number 1, rank them as such. The system can't work if you feed it garbage.

Grumble,

It's not that easy. While I don't disagree with you in some cases, if the #1 is getting out and my #2 DH is and would be capable of leading a squadron, I'm going to give him/her the bump and give them the opportunity to promote and compete for squadron XO/CO in the active component. If there is a huge disparity between the #1 and #2 and I don't have confidence in the #2's ability to be a commanding officer, the decision is easy. Just because someone is ranked second doesn't mean they can't be a good leader or shouldn't promote. The Navy's system is broken in that regard with far too much emphasis on the length(duration) of the DH #1 EP ticket and it loses some quality folks that will never screen for command solely as a function of timing.

I have sat on a few SelRes (Navy) promotion boards as both a recorder and voting member; In most cases, the last active component FITREP does not hurt the member unless that final FITREP had/has language in it that is a message to the board, then we're having a different discussion. A lower ranking in traffic is expected at the time you get off active duty(the board understands that) and the emphasis is placed on performance up to that point and after that depending on the member's timing for the board. If a person who leaves active duty doesn't promote in the reserves, it isn't because of their last FITREP being taken down a notch as they are leaving active duty, at least not in the Navy.

If you are having fun and are still getting Promoted go ahead and stay. Great advice from a forgotten friend. Maybe add have some mentors carrying your water too in retrospect. Because airline life is not close to squadron life. On the other hand staff life is not close to airline life. Took the bonus a couple times, right after I negotiated the orders I wanted. Oh yeah every set of orders for 20+ were flying. Then the wheel stopped, the fun dropped, and it was time to go.

Incidently, had dinner the other night with a retired O-6 Aviator whose last job was in Millington in Aviation detailing. Further facts deleted to protect the fork tonged devil. Very hard to keep people past 20 across the board. But he retired when his fun factor dropped, and despite non current for 5+ years, took actions that led to a killer corporate gig. YMMV.

I'm sure that's true, but it's not just the last competitive fitrep that gets taken down a notch for the pilot who is thinking about getting out. Plus, career paths come into play as well. Three years ago, when the abysmal O-4 results came out, there were a lot of JOs who thought "maybe I should take that NROTC gig at Penn instead of the better Navy career move," or "why should I go to the boat when there's a 40% chance I'll get fired anyway?" The promotion rates will probably keep getting better by shifting the zones, but a large group of JOs getting out now are just the smart ones who didn't want to gamble with 50-60% promotion rates.... and they came to that decision years ago and prepared accordingly.

A lot of talent is leaving the Navy right now for that reason. I'm talking about community golden children who are one foot out the door as soon as they show up for their disassociated tour. I'm actually surprised when I meet a LT who wants to do 20 now.

What else gets taken down a notch when you decide to leave active duty from a career perspective? I'm not sure I'm following your line of thinking here. I was simply attempting to articulate (based on my experience) how/why a 'out the door' FITREP that may be declining or not an EP isn't a show stopper for promotion in the reserves or even command down the road.

The O-4 selection board issues are separate and distinct from dudes getting out in droves IMHO. I don't think you can put cause/effect with those two tied together. QOL is the #1 driver for folks getting out, at least the ones I speak to daily. That really has nothing to do with the folks that didn't make O-4 because the board process was jacked up. Sure it might leave a bad taste in folks' mouths(and it should) but I don't think its the driver.

I'm a SelRes CO at an FRS, I get what you're saying about talented folks leaving, I see it all the time and even have to turn great talent away from my organization because we're full, I get it. Those folks will find gainful employment in the reserves if they choose to, but the competition for those spots(flying) is pretty stiff right now. That will ebb and flow, as will this retention issue as it cycles back around; it always has and it will again.

Interesting that the Navy reserve is difficult to get into where the Air Guard/Reserve is loosing guys at a high clip and can't fill the spots fast enough.

What I meant was that it's not just your last fitrep that can get taken down a notch for expressing a desire to leave the military... you can suffer for multiple fitrep cycles before that depending on how early you express that desire.

Also, those O4 results did do quite a number to the JO community which you may not recognize, being much senior to those JOs and whatnot. While I agree that QOL issues are a big driver of the looming pilot retention problem in the Navy, I know a lot of guys who pretty much gave up on the Navy when the results of those boards came out. Why take the hard job, when you're probably going to get fired anyway.

And that brings me to the point of my first post. There are a lot of JOs taking themselves out of the running for promotion to O4 either because they made it known they were getting out, thereby bringing their fitreps down... or by taking the easier jobs or the jobs that set them up for the civilian world. If you don't think that that brings down the overall quality of the group that does get promoted, then I don't know what to tell you.

Yup
 

Here, here. Get out while you can. Life is incredibly good on the outside.

The Navy's been slowly letting Reserve units with hardware wither and die to the point where there aren't a lot of flying gigs left. Combine that with people wanting to get out and do airlines plus flying (Navy) reserves, and the spots are fairly competitive. As a Navy guy, I do feel an apprehension to jumping services just out of familiarity. Is that logical? No, not really.

First off, Roll Tide. I can only speak to the Army side of things and the writing is definitely on the wall. I expect it to happen officially around 2018.

Problem for you is, I don't see it happening for your airframe. Currently the AH-64 is under strength by greater than the 60 and 47 combined AND times 2. Seriously. Everyone else is sitting pretty right now and I'd be surprised if you guys got the offer.

I believe it IS logical. As someone who helped start probably one of the most robust Inter-Service Transfer programs in military flying, I dealt with a lot Navy, Marine, and USCG pilots that made the jump.

There is a great deal of new material/culture/terminology/regulations/etc... to learn.

where there's a will there's a way right? :D

The main and obvious one is, more flying spots in the AF side of the ARC.... oh yeah and that other little thing: no individual invol mob. Check. Mate.

ANG and AFR are looking for current and qualified guys in the specific airframe that they're flying. Any non-current guys from staff or people from other airframes are not being considered for flying jobs. If they're "short" on pilots it's self-induced.

It's kind of like starving to death because you're too lazy to get up and go to the fridge.

True. The unwillingness to re-tread is especially acute in the fighter communities. AF has always been ethnocentric like that. Oh well, let them eat cake then. :rolleyes:

Not really. TX-1s barely exist. TX-2/3/4s are available, but first-come/first-served. B-courses are all but impossible for rated retreads (bomber or heavy to fighter). Finally, emailing a resume to the squadron commander isn't enough to get hired. Most applicants never show up to hang out with/meet the squadron (rush).

Generally, units hire "good dudes," regardless of background or currency. The only real "walls" are needing a B-course or TX-1 and rank. Don't expect to retread if you're a senior major or a lieutenant colonel.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but can you un-"Air Force" that for the rest of us?

Exactly. No one in their right mind tells anyone their true intentions for this very reason. You're a career guy, right up until you drop your letter and quit. Lot of current/post DH guys coming up the pipe for command screen that shouldn't be, because peers superior to them quit. They wouldn't be there if ranked appropriately to their quitting counterparts. Not to sat they're aren't a lot of really good dudes that deserve it and will out perform their own leadership. Only takes one turd to ruin a punch bowl though.

B-Course=intial qualification. UPT grad to F-15, F-16, C-17, etc.

TX-1= long transition course. Could be a non-current (more than 5 years) out of cockpit guy coming back, or someone changing fighters (A-10 to F-16, etc).

TX-2= Short course. Flew F-16 but did 2 year staff or 1 year ALO, now going back to course....

3/4 are modified short courses. Some rides can be waived or proficiency advanced.

Its been 10 years since I was an FTU IP so I may be fuzzy on some details...but short answer is B course and TX-1 are long, expensive courses that take 3-6 months on average. There are fewer of these than the easier, shorter, TX-2/3/4 programs.

If you are current--it doesn't cost the force much to get your requalified. Been out of the jet a while--its tougher for the unit and the cost and time are higher.

Thanks!

...filler...

I hear what both of you are saying collectively. I agree that making your intentions known to leave active duty before you have to is not going to bode well for you, nor should it really on the active component side. Bottom line, if I'm an active component CO, am I going to write a #1 EP FITREP in traffic on a guy that is getting out and continually break them out over someone I think can and will make a great DH or CO on the active component side? No, probably not unless there was that much disparity between their performance.

The O-4 board was a travesty and that's all that needs to be said, really. I'd only add that was the exception and not the rule and it has been addressed, moving forward. That doesn't make it any easier for those that were 2 x FOS'd, I also get that and understand why folks would look at that and jump. There were plenty of those JOs in the squadron (FRS) I fly in, so I saw it firsthand.

The hard part about Naval Aviation and the minimum service length post wings is the timing associated with dropping your letter and getting out coupled with zones for O-4. They don't mesh well. That said if you're passed over for O-4 on the active side and affiliate with the reserves to a flying unit(board selected) and your reserve CO writes your FITREP correctly, regardless of EP/MP, you WILL promote. I have sat on those boards and watched it happen.

To your point about post DH folks screening for command that shouldn't: The board can only look at the record as its briefed in the tank. If the record on an eligible has a 12 month #1EP from his/her DH tour, they will probably screen over someone with a 7-8 month ticket. You might not like the guy/girl and they might not be who you'd want in command if those other folks had stayed, but guess what, the board only has the records in front of them to look at and the FITREPS written by COs. I don't necessarily agree with how that system works in terms of timing/FITREP length but its the system we have.

What the heck happened in the Navy? Nobody made O4?

Not aviators.

Sounds like the O5s in Air Combat Command. Too busy fighting the war and not enough time to do bake sales, MC an awards ceremony, or be the Air Show POC.

Marines didn't fair any better. Lots of very surprised JOs.......

The selection rate for aviators and NFOs has been dropping wildly. Used to be in the 80's and is now below 50%.


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I love how this thread has mirrored life! In that, much like the title, there is NO discussion of an actual bonus for 75XX in the face of declining MX, flight hours, and pilots migrating to the civ div. Thoughts? �� <-This was a laughing Emoji...

As a SelRes, I am in a squadron augment unit at a fleet replacement squadron where many JO's are leaving active duty. Anecdotally, money from a bonus matters not to today's JOs. Even if the bonus was raised significantly, I don't think retention would trend in a different direction; 2nd/3rd year airline pay support that notion if folks bail for the airlines. For others, they were getting out regardless (e.g. Law school, MBA then private sector etc).