NetJets: By the Numbers
12-03-2019, 05:57 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Position: Phenom driver
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by C2078
CC76 base pay is $217k for a MAXED out Captain, meaning you will gone from home 19 days per month on a 6-3, 6-3, 7-5 type of schedule. I for one want my kids to know who I am. If you are single or not married, good option if you live to work.
Add long bonus $8.7k, average of 4 holidays $6k, FDP AVERAGE of $20k, $5k in OT and you arrive at $256k. Some do work extended days, that will put you above 20 days per month. Sometimes you will get a return after midnight, for simplicity round to $260k.
$260k flying a little airplane is most definitely very good! The option is there to make the money if needed, and you WILL work for it! Mind you, again, this is for a topped out Captain. Large cabin Captains make a bit more as well, but you need 20+ years seniority to hold that.
You have to compare Apples to Apples, 401k match is NOT wages. It is part of you compensation package.
People throw around $300k like it’s the norm, which is most certainly not. It is doable for sure, but takes A LOT OF WORK!!
Add long bonus $8.7k, average of 4 holidays $6k, FDP AVERAGE of $20k, $5k in OT and you arrive at $256k. Some do work extended days, that will put you above 20 days per month. Sometimes you will get a return after midnight, for simplicity round to $260k.
$260k flying a little airplane is most definitely very good! The option is there to make the money if needed, and you WILL work for it! Mind you, again, this is for a topped out Captain. Large cabin Captains make a bit more as well, but you need 20+ years seniority to hold that.
You have to compare Apples to Apples, 401k match is NOT wages. It is part of you compensation package.
People throw around $300k like it’s the norm, which is most certainly not. It is doable for sure, but takes A LOT OF WORK!!
Not saying it's the average, not saying everyone could do that but without working your brain off, possible.
Same at my regional, some guys have a second job or family help and dotty want to work more than 15 days a month, some work every legal hour they could because they want to make max income, in the end the latter end up with 8-9 days off per month, living in base, and at 15 years at this regional, just averaging $120-150K/month as a captain.
12-03-2019, 07:25 AM
#22
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
I think the major problem as a whole, is how we compare compensation in our career. Just as Fixnem2Flyinem stated, people seem to think we work half the year, and that it is so hard to work half the year and make what we make. 300k is a good salary, it is well above the average income, but to me that is irrelevant. Lots of pilots have masters, the vast majority have degrees, and we all have the equivalent training of a doctorate or more. If you look at it along those lines, it isn't magical at all to claim that we work half the year and make more than the average 9-5 stiff.
Breaking it down further, 300k a year for working 19 days a month, comparing that to career aviation companies makes that number start to look less illustrious. Doesn't mean that 300k its self isn't a lot of money, and it isn't something to be proud of, not at all. Hands down, NJA is the highest compensation and QOL 135/91k operator in existence. There are for sure unicorn 91 jobs that pay more and work you less but its harder to get on those jobs than NJA. The problem is having to spend 16 years working 19 days a month to get to 300k. It takes 5-7 years on the 7/7 to crack 100k in salary+FDP as an FO.
Breaking it down further, 300k a year for working 19 days a month, comparing that to career aviation companies makes that number start to look less illustrious. Doesn't mean that 300k its self isn't a lot of money, and it isn't something to be proud of, not at all. Hands down, NJA is the highest compensation and QOL 135/91k operator in existence. There are for sure unicorn 91 jobs that pay more and work you less but its harder to get on those jobs than NJA. The problem is having to spend 16 years working 19 days a month to get to 300k. It takes 5-7 years on the 7/7 to crack 100k in salary+FDP as an FO.
12-03-2019, 08:00 AM
#23
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
That is what non cheerleaders, objective, not management stooges are trying to get across.
Compare a 1st year guy at NJ with a 1st year at a Big 6, a 5th year guy with a 5th year guy, a 15th year guy with a 15th and etc.
You simply cannot compare a 15 year NJ little airplane guy with a Big Six new hire. For that new hire, that job is not an option. Now, if you want to make the argument about staying at NJ or going to a Big six as a new hire, then that is a valid one, that is something real today.
Compare a 15 year guy at NJ with a 15 year guy at a big six. Compare SAME AMOUNT of work days, same benefits, etc. In general, NJ CC76 pay is good, but if you compare the same 15 yr guy at a big six working the same amount of days, you will see he/she will make more money, with the added benefit to control his/her schedule much better. At NJ, especially on the CC schedules, very little margin to message schedule. And the same person at a big six with the same 4 weeks vacation will have better ability to extend number if days off per vacation week. These are facts. And we haven’t even talked about the 16% DC, compared to 55% match on federal limit, which you must contribute to get, unlike DC. FDP has breached the gap somewhat, but it is still tilted.
People say travel benefits are useless now a days due to planes being so full. I completely disagree with this statement. I use REGULARLY to meet up with family, friends, kids sporting events, quick getaways, etc, many trips I would not be able to do without pass benefits if I had to pay tickets EVERY TIME. When the family absolutely needs to be somewhere, I buy the tickets. Points at NJ are overrated. The same logic applies for points, you need to plan wayyyyy in advance, which is doable, if not points/miles go real quick. Even Hotel points are becoming less and less valuable due to much higher redemption rates.
For someone who doesn’t want to commute, live in BFE, NJ fly from home is arguably the absolute best benefit, no doubt. On the flip side, living in base at a big six is a job like no other.
Shenzi points out two examples of CC76 guys that just went to Australia, had a great vacation, don’t look tired, etc. After 15+ years at NJ, the vast majority of people I spoke to absolutely hated the CC schedule, only bidding for money because the base 7/7 was so low. Especially the folks with children hated the 3-4 day turnarounds, doesn’t give you much time to do much.
In my case, I do miss the flying a bit, but my QOL has improved dramatically. I can trade, drop, message my schedule much better than I was at NJ. I went from being a topped out small cabin captain working 7/7 to now a third year cargo FO making about the same, EVEN including the new FDP, but working an average of 3-4 less days per month. Yes, it costs me about $300/month for health insurance, but I have a 12% DC AND the golden egg (roughly $85k per year when I retire) waiting for me at the end.
I put both jobs side by side, full comparison of every pro/con, in almost every category (not every) my current job came out ahead. Not to mention this job is infinitely easier and while every industry has risks, I feel much more secure here than a segment that caters to the top 1%.
To each his own....
Compare a 1st year guy at NJ with a 1st year at a Big 6, a 5th year guy with a 5th year guy, a 15th year guy with a 15th and etc.
You simply cannot compare a 15 year NJ little airplane guy with a Big Six new hire. For that new hire, that job is not an option. Now, if you want to make the argument about staying at NJ or going to a Big six as a new hire, then that is a valid one, that is something real today.
Compare a 15 year guy at NJ with a 15 year guy at a big six. Compare SAME AMOUNT of work days, same benefits, etc. In general, NJ CC76 pay is good, but if you compare the same 15 yr guy at a big six working the same amount of days, you will see he/she will make more money, with the added benefit to control his/her schedule much better. At NJ, especially on the CC schedules, very little margin to message schedule. And the same person at a big six with the same 4 weeks vacation will have better ability to extend number if days off per vacation week. These are facts. And we haven’t even talked about the 16% DC, compared to 55% match on federal limit, which you must contribute to get, unlike DC. FDP has breached the gap somewhat, but it is still tilted.
People say travel benefits are useless now a days due to planes being so full. I completely disagree with this statement. I use REGULARLY to meet up with family, friends, kids sporting events, quick getaways, etc, many trips I would not be able to do without pass benefits if I had to pay tickets EVERY TIME. When the family absolutely needs to be somewhere, I buy the tickets. Points at NJ are overrated. The same logic applies for points, you need to plan wayyyyy in advance, which is doable, if not points/miles go real quick. Even Hotel points are becoming less and less valuable due to much higher redemption rates.
For someone who doesn’t want to commute, live in BFE, NJ fly from home is arguably the absolute best benefit, no doubt. On the flip side, living in base at a big six is a job like no other.
Shenzi points out two examples of CC76 guys that just went to Australia, had a great vacation, don’t look tired, etc. After 15+ years at NJ, the vast majority of people I spoke to absolutely hated the CC schedule, only bidding for money because the base 7/7 was so low. Especially the folks with children hated the 3-4 day turnarounds, doesn’t give you much time to do much.
In my case, I do miss the flying a bit, but my QOL has improved dramatically. I can trade, drop, message my schedule much better than I was at NJ. I went from being a topped out small cabin captain working 7/7 to now a third year cargo FO making about the same, EVEN including the new FDP, but working an average of 3-4 less days per month. Yes, it costs me about $300/month for health insurance, but I have a 12% DC AND the golden egg (roughly $85k per year when I retire) waiting for me at the end.
I put both jobs side by side, full comparison of every pro/con, in almost every category (not every) my current job came out ahead. Not to mention this job is infinitely easier and while every industry has risks, I feel much more secure here than a segment that caters to the top 1%.
To each his own....
Last edited by C2078; 12-03-2019 at 08:11 AM.
12-03-2019, 05:00 PM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 47
real numbers
Want real numbers? I'm not posting these to gloat. I'm just trying to give a first hand picture of what the real deal is..
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
-This includes a $30,000 signing bonus which I won't get next year.
-It also includes about $35,000-$37,000 in flight duty pay/night flight pay.
- It includes my sold back PTO days.
-I do fly some holidays voluntarily, which pays about $1350 extra per day
- It includes 4 voluntary extended days.
In addition to the above and NOT included in those totals are:
- about $13,000 in 401k matching
- per diem of about $50 per day
- cost savings from crew meals of 2 meals per work day (don't laugh-those meal costs can add up)
-no cost FULL health insurance, including dental and vision (small office visit copays and low copays for prescriptions). If you have a family, they are covered too.
To round out the picture:
-I get 4 paid vacation weeks per year (since I'm on the 7/7, each week is actually 3 consecutive weeks off. Hypothetically, I can take a paid 3 week vacation every quarter. Sometimes I put two together and take a 5 week vacation.
-My 401K is currently worth about $1.1 million. I figure it will be worth around $2.5 million to $3 million at age 65.
-I get to keep all the airline miles and hotel points that I acquire from work stays. I'm now lifetime Hilton Diamond VIP and Marriott Gold. I also keep all of the AMEX credit card points for money the company spends on the airlines and hotels. I use those hotel points and airline miles for personal travel when it works best for me.
-I can live almost anywhere I want in the US and not have to commute. I move around often and change my base accordingly.
-The job is definitely different than 121 and involves more work, including cleaning up the aircraft and stocking (though that's typically the FO's job-and in a few of our major bases, that is now done by detailers), packing the bags in the luggage compartment (though we usually have help from linemen), interacting with the passengers.
-The daily schedule is totally unknown until the previous day and often changes. I never know where I'm going to end up. But it really doesn't matter. I see many places that 121 pilots never will.
I figure the entire "package" is worth around $300,000/yr, which will be a little less next year due to lack of signing bonus. I could easily make another $50,000 if I wanted to work my ass off.
I could be forgetting something.... anyone else please feel free to chime in.
A few years ago, I began filling out my apps for DAL and UAL. But, after I returned from a personal trip to Europe, back to the US, and then to Colombia (on a 5 week paid vacation) and decided to move back to Florida, I realized that I had it pretty damned good and decided to stay. I'm happy with my decision.
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
-This includes a $30,000 signing bonus which I won't get next year.
-It also includes about $35,000-$37,000 in flight duty pay/night flight pay.
- It includes my sold back PTO days.
-I do fly some holidays voluntarily, which pays about $1350 extra per day
- It includes 4 voluntary extended days.
In addition to the above and NOT included in those totals are:
- about $13,000 in 401k matching
- per diem of about $50 per day
- cost savings from crew meals of 2 meals per work day (don't laugh-those meal costs can add up)
-no cost FULL health insurance, including dental and vision (small office visit copays and low copays for prescriptions). If you have a family, they are covered too.
To round out the picture:
-I get 4 paid vacation weeks per year (since I'm on the 7/7, each week is actually 3 consecutive weeks off. Hypothetically, I can take a paid 3 week vacation every quarter. Sometimes I put two together and take a 5 week vacation.
-My 401K is currently worth about $1.1 million. I figure it will be worth around $2.5 million to $3 million at age 65.
-I get to keep all the airline miles and hotel points that I acquire from work stays. I'm now lifetime Hilton Diamond VIP and Marriott Gold. I also keep all of the AMEX credit card points for money the company spends on the airlines and hotels. I use those hotel points and airline miles for personal travel when it works best for me.
-I can live almost anywhere I want in the US and not have to commute. I move around often and change my base accordingly.
-The job is definitely different than 121 and involves more work, including cleaning up the aircraft and stocking (though that's typically the FO's job-and in a few of our major bases, that is now done by detailers), packing the bags in the luggage compartment (though we usually have help from linemen), interacting with the passengers.
-The daily schedule is totally unknown until the previous day and often changes. I never know where I'm going to end up. But it really doesn't matter. I see many places that 121 pilots never will.
I figure the entire "package" is worth around $300,000/yr, which will be a little less next year due to lack of signing bonus. I could easily make another $50,000 if I wanted to work my ass off.
I could be forgetting something.... anyone else please feel free to chime in.
A few years ago, I began filling out my apps for DAL and UAL. But, after I returned from a personal trip to Europe, back to the US, and then to Colombia (on a 5 week paid vacation) and decided to move back to Florida, I realized that I had it pretty damned good and decided to stay. I'm happy with my decision.
12-03-2019, 06:32 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by hydra
Want real numbers? I'm not posting these to gloat. I'm just trying to give a first hand picture of what the real deal is..
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
20 Year captains make what 5 year widebody FOs are making.
12-03-2019, 06:37 PM
#28
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by hydra
Want real numbers? I'm not posting these to gloat. I'm just trying to give a first hand picture of what the real deal is..
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
-This includes a $30,000 signing bonus which I won't get next year.
-It also includes about $35,000-$37,000 in flight duty pay/night flight pay.
- It includes my sold back PTO days.
-I do fly some holidays voluntarily, which pays about $1350 extra per day
- It includes 4 voluntary extended days.
In addition to the above and NOT included in those totals are:
- about $13,000 in 401k matching
- per diem of about $50 per day
- cost savings from crew meals of 2 meals per work day (don't laugh-those meal costs can add up)
-no cost FULL health insurance, including dental and vision (small office visit copays and low copays for prescriptions). If you have a family, they are covered too.
To round out the picture:
-I get 4 paid vacation weeks per year (since I'm on the 7/7, each week is actually 3 consecutive weeks off. Hypothetically, I can take a paid 3 week vacation every quarter. Sometimes I put two together and take a 5 week vacation.
-My 401K is currently worth about $1.1 million. I figure it will be worth around $2.5 million to $3 million at age 65.
-I get to keep all the airline miles and hotel points that I acquire from work stays. I'm now lifetime Hilton Diamond VIP and Marriott Gold. I also keep all of the AMEX credit card points for money the company spends on the airlines and hotels. I use those hotel points and airline miles for personal travel when it works best for me.
-I can live almost anywhere I want in the US and not have to commute. I move around often and change my base accordingly.
-The job is definitely different than 121 and involves more work, including cleaning up the aircraft and stocking (though that's typically the FO's job-and in a few of our major bases, that is now done by detailers), packing the bags in the luggage compartment (though we usually have help from linemen), interacting with the passengers.
-The daily schedule is totally unknown until the previous day and often changes. I never know where I'm going to end up. But it really doesn't matter. I see many places that 121 pilots never will.
I figure the entire "package" is worth around $300,000/yr, which will be a little less next year due to lack of signing bonus. I could easily make another $50,000 if I wanted to work my ass off.
I could be forgetting something.... anyone else please feel free to chime in.
A few years ago, I began filling out my apps for DAL and UAL. But, after I returned from a personal trip to Europe, back to the US, and then to Colombia (on a 5 week paid vacation) and decided to move back to Florida, I realized that I had it pretty damned good and decided to stay. I'm happy with my decision.
I'm a 50 somthing year old,20 year Captain, flying a CL-350 on the 7/7 schedule. There are 2 paychecks left, so this isn't exact but pretty close. In 2019, I will make about $270,000.
-This includes a $30,000 signing bonus which I won't get next year.
-It also includes about $35,000-$37,000 in flight duty pay/night flight pay.
- It includes my sold back PTO days.
-I do fly some holidays voluntarily, which pays about $1350 extra per day
- It includes 4 voluntary extended days.
In addition to the above and NOT included in those totals are:
- about $13,000 in 401k matching
- per diem of about $50 per day
- cost savings from crew meals of 2 meals per work day (don't laugh-those meal costs can add up)
-no cost FULL health insurance, including dental and vision (small office visit copays and low copays for prescriptions). If you have a family, they are covered too.
To round out the picture:
-I get 4 paid vacation weeks per year (since I'm on the 7/7, each week is actually 3 consecutive weeks off. Hypothetically, I can take a paid 3 week vacation every quarter. Sometimes I put two together and take a 5 week vacation.
-My 401K is currently worth about $1.1 million. I figure it will be worth around $2.5 million to $3 million at age 65.
-I get to keep all the airline miles and hotel points that I acquire from work stays. I'm now lifetime Hilton Diamond VIP and Marriott Gold. I also keep all of the AMEX credit card points for money the company spends on the airlines and hotels. I use those hotel points and airline miles for personal travel when it works best for me.
-I can live almost anywhere I want in the US and not have to commute. I move around often and change my base accordingly.
-The job is definitely different than 121 and involves more work, including cleaning up the aircraft and stocking (though that's typically the FO's job-and in a few of our major bases, that is now done by detailers), packing the bags in the luggage compartment (though we usually have help from linemen), interacting with the passengers.
-The daily schedule is totally unknown until the previous day and often changes. I never know where I'm going to end up. But it really doesn't matter. I see many places that 121 pilots never will.
I figure the entire "package" is worth around $300,000/yr, which will be a little less next year due to lack of signing bonus. I could easily make another $50,000 if I wanted to work my ass off.
I could be forgetting something.... anyone else please feel free to chime in.
A few years ago, I began filling out my apps for DAL and UAL. But, after I returned from a personal trip to Europe, back to the US, and then to Colombia (on a 5 week paid vacation) and decided to move back to Florida, I realized that I had it pretty damned good and decided to stay. I'm happy with my decision.
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