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Old 09-17-2022, 04:02 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ExecJet99 View Post
Iím not sure. Thereís so many company leg humpers that believe anything the company or union says. Just read our message boards. DZ and GR come to mind. Thereís finally a few over there that are chiming in and making waves. The problem is that if you say something the union doesnít like you are shut off. So much for that pesky 1st amendment, I may new here but Iíve been at NJ since Ď99 and have seen this program before.
There is a union message board penalty box if you break the rules of the message board. There are plenty of people that post things that the union doesn't like that aren't put in the penalty box simply because they followed the rules. Anybody can share their opinion and those who don't take personal shots can continue to share their opinion. Their are definitely some that will continually try to discredit anyone with a different opinion, but nobody gets shut off for their opinion. Your 1st amendment comment is simply wrong. If you get shut off, it is because you broke the rules and a differing opinion is NOT something that is breaking the rules.
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Old 09-17-2022, 04:41 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Das Auto View Post
This argument drives me crazy! The 2.5 VED is a win for everyone! Junior F.O.s such as myself rely on that to supplement our incomes while we patiently wait to upgrade or work our way up the F.O. payscale. VED is not mandatory. Don't like it? Don't volunteer for it!

The company benefits because if enough people volunteer they can adequately staff the fleet and therefore spend less on expensive third party contract vendors. That allows them to make more profit which is preferable to the pilot group as a whole if we're trying to increase our compensation. Would you rather negotiate while the company is hemorrhaging profit on third party vendor

One more thing while I've got my ranting hat on. (Not necessarily directed at you heavyD.)
Not all new hires have a wet ink ATP. I was hired last year with 10,000 hours (of which 7,000 is 121&135 PIC, 4 type ratings and 2 check airman letters. I'm flying with guys that have zero time in type post IOE and zero PIC time because they just upgraded, yet I sit in the right seat earning half the pay. That's the way it works in this crazy industry. Leaving one job to start another is like deliberately landing on the "bankrupt" wedge on the wheel of fortune. Start over again from zero. That's my choice and my long term strategy so I can't complain too loudly for self inflicted circumstances, but I can still speak up and raise the B.S. flag when my colleagues are advocating cutting off their noses to spite their faces.you

Inflation is real. Us pilots know it, management knows it and the aircraft owners know it. Increases will need to come due to basic math, but playing silly buggers in an attempt to poke the bear will benefit nobody.
Thatís the problem. The base pay is way too low and always has been here. We are not helping anyone by extending the VED LOA. Theyíve been using soft money to get people in the door and then they control how much flying you get and how many VEDs you get. Sorry. They lied to you. This has to stop so we all can get a decent base pay.
You were hired last year. And now regional new hires are starting at $100k. Thatís why we need to have a little pain for us and the company to get what we want.
I will spare you the crap about how I started at$ 27500 and built this place. Blah blah blah. But I will say what Iíve learned. This company comes to us when ever they want relief from a problem that THEY created. Not sooner. And they will come. But we have to stop enabling them.
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Old 09-17-2022, 04:49 PM
  #33  
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We arenít trying to cut our noses off. Weíre trying to get the rest of the 2700 of us to stop bailing out the Bridgeway Brigadeís poor scheduling efficiency, and ostrich-like strategy to pilot hiring and retention.

Youíre helping yourself and youíre helping the company.

Weíre supposed to be helping each other.
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Old 09-17-2022, 07:51 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by FracCracka View Post
We arenít trying to cut our noses off. Weíre trying to get the rest of the 2700 of us to stop bailing out the Bridgeway Brigadeís poor scheduling efficiency, and ostrich-like strategy to pilot hiring and retention.

Youíre helping yourself and youíre helping the company.

Weíre supposed to be helping each other.
You're right, but its not like the company is refusing to hire while trying to squeeze more out of the existing workforce is it? The training dept is at near max capacity with new hires and upgrades. VED works for everyone. Leave it alone.
Complaining about new shirts that don't fit properly, crew meals not arriving on time, and the Hasbrouck Heights Hilton just makes us look like a bunch of cry babies too. Why don't we focus on keeping a simple message? The current salaries are not keeping up with inflation and other carriers have significantly increased their compensation in an effort to attract and retain. Our turn now.
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Old 09-17-2022, 09:37 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Das Auto View Post
You're right, but its not like the company is refusing to hire while trying to squeeze more out of the existing workforce is it? The training dept is at near max capacity with new hires and upgrades. VED works for everyone. Leave it alone.
Complaining about new shirts that don't fit properly, crew meals not arriving on time, and the Hasbrouck Heights Hilton just makes us look like a bunch of cry babies too. Why don't we focus on keeping a simple message? The current salaries are not keeping up with inflation and other carriers have significantly increased their compensation in an effort to attract and retain. Our turn now.
The company has only/always come to the union to fix the problems that THEY created. This is another one. We are just enabling them with the VED. If we donít keep the 2.5 that doesnít mean you canít still extend. And may others that have over extended themselves for the last 2 years will. If you want to get a base pay increase thatís the first step. Then we will almost be as attractive as a regional. Very soon we wonít be able to fill the classes and the attrition will skyrocket. Itís already starting to happen. They will come to us soon. To fix the problems that they created.
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Old 09-18-2022, 02:09 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Das Auto View Post
You're right, but its not like the company is refusing to hire while trying to squeeze more out of the existing workforce is it? The training dept is at near max capacity with new hires and upgrades. VED works for everyone. Leave it alone.
Complaining about new shirts that don't fit properly, crew meals not arriving on time, and the Hasbrouck Heights Hilton just makes us look like a bunch of cry babies too. Why don't we focus on keeping a simple message? The current salaries are not keeping up with inflation and other carriers have significantly increased their compensation in an effort to attract and retain. Our turn now.
I personally like the VEDs and take full advantage of the program, but if the overall group says they must go for leverage, I'll be OK with that because it will put pressure on the company to up the salary part of the compensation that everyone will get. As far as not complaining about hotels and crew food and the uniform, I don't agree. When you have been here for a while, you will get very tired of the company failing to provide adequate service to us. Just complaining doesn't do much until enough people get fed up and use the use union surveys to get leadership to aggressively take these problems on. If the majority is lead to set the parking brake until adequate food is obtained (in a reasonable manner), the company will magically find a way to fix the issue (spend more money to get caterers to care and keep the metal moving). Or when the hotel sucks and doesn't provide adequate rest, leadership could lead the majority to call in fatigued or to "mitigate" their schedule to get adequate rest. This will get the company to make a needed change. The little things that affect our quality of life will be magnified as you get older and as the job itself starts to "get old".
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Old 09-18-2022, 02:39 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by ExecJet99 View Post
Thatís correct. From the union president himself. (In the IBI 23ípost) He has a young family and doesnít want to have to start over at the bottom of someoneís seniority list if something goes wrong. I was under the impression that a union president shouldnít put his personal wants in front of the membership.
BTW. Thereís never been a better time to make this happen. The company wants to wait till we are in a recession and then negotiate.
I think that the union president should want to stay at the company that he works for. His post did say that he is young enough to start over somewhere else without harming his household very much. He also said that he will follow the desires of the group- as in what the majority ask for via surveys and how the last survey (from March) showed that 69% of the membership wants to keep a non aggressive working relationship with management. There is a survey going on right now so now is the time to let the union leadership know that you want a more aggressive stance and maybe if you get enough pilots riled up, that is what the majority will request. Pedro fully knows how to take the aggressive path if the majority asks for it, but until the majority and not just those that post a lot, tell him to go to war, he won't be leading that way.

I am requesting a more aggressive stance, but I don't think we should take it to 2015 levels yet. Until management truly believes there is a problem recruiting and retaining enough pilots (and convinces the Bershire board that actually controls the purse strings to open them), it will be a much harder fight to move the compensation to adequate levels. The company has already lowered the mins twice in the last year or so to attract new hires and attrition is most definitely starting to creep up, especially from those who were hired recently. That is our true leverage and the best leverage we will have. I personally believe that the union cranking things up like 2015 before the hiring and attrition have truly ripened will not achieve results that we will be happy with. There is a risk that we go into a bad enough recession that the spigot to the airlines and good cargo will slow down enough for the company to keep their head above water with enough crews, but I'm willing to take that risk to go for big gains and I'll support union leadership as long as they are following the will of the majority.
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Old 09-18-2022, 05:32 AM
  #38  
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jtf,

I also support the union leadership. However, with the latest announcement of a HUGE pay raise by Horizon, on top of all the other regional pay raises announced, I feel the time to pressure management is nowÖor very, very soon. The longer we wait, the higher the chances of something happening which decreases our bargaining power.
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Old 09-18-2022, 06:10 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Das Auto View Post
This argument drives me crazy! The 2.5 VED is a win for everyone! Junior F.O.s such as myself rely on that to supplement our incomes while we patiently wait to upgrade or work our way up the F.O. payscale. VED is not mandatory. Don't like it? Don't volunteer for it!

The company benefits because if enough people volunteer they can adequately staff the fleet and therefore spend less on expensive third party contract vendors. That allows them to make more profit which is preferable to the pilot group as a whole if we're trying to increase our compensation. Would you rather negotiate while the company is hemorrhaging profit on third party vendors?

One more thing while I've got my ranting hat on. (Not necessarily directed at you heavyD.)
Not all new hires have a wet ink ATP. I was hired last year with 10,000 hours (of which 7,000 is 121&135 PIC, 4 type ratings and 2 check airman letters. I'm flying with guys that have zero time in type post IOE and zero PIC time because they just upgraded, yet I sit in the right seat earning half the pay. That's the way it works in this crazy industry. Leaving one job to start another is like deliberately landing on the "bankrupt" wedge on the wheel of fortune. Start over again from zero. That's my choice and my long term strategy so I can't complain too loudly for self inflicted circumstances, but I can still speak up and raise the B.S. flag when my colleagues are advocating cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Inflation is real. Us pilots know it, management knows it and the aircraft owners know it. Increases will need to come due to basic math, but playing silly buggers in an attempt to poke the bear will benefit nobody.
The 2.5 VED will not snap back to 1.5 due to pilots. It will happen because of management. The survey that is currently ongoing will probably show this.
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Old 09-18-2022, 06:13 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jtf560 View Post
I personally like the VEDs and take full advantage of the program, but if the overall group says they must go for leverage, I'll be OK with that because it will put pressure on the company to up the salary part of the compensation that everyone will get. As far as not complaining about hotels and crew food and the uniform, I don't agree. When you have been here for a while, you will get very tired of the company failing to provide adequate service to us. Just complaining doesn't do much until enough people get fed up and use the use union surveys to get leadership to aggressively take these problems on. If the majority is lead to set the parking brake until adequate food is obtained (in a reasonable manner), the company will magically find a way to fix the issue (spend more money to get caterers to care and keep the metal moving). Or when the hotel sucks and doesn't provide adequate rest, leadership could lead the majority to call in fatigued or to "mitigate" their schedule to get adequate rest. This will get the company to make a needed change. The little things that affect our quality of life will be magnified as you get older and as the job itself starts to "get old".
Yes but pick your battles. Right now the focus should be on increasing compensation. The other stuff is a distraction. I've never had a problem with getting meal deviations when my crew food was no show. Maybe increasing the deviation amount idue to inflation is a legit argument though.
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