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Old 09-18-2022, 06:36 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by ExecJet99 View Post
I’m not sure. There’s so many company leg humpers that believe anything the company or union says. Just read our message boards. DZ and GR come to mind. There’s finally a few over there that are chiming in and making waves. The problem is that if you say something the union doesn’t like you are shut off. So much for that pesky 1st amendment, I may new here but I’ve been at NJ since ‘99 and have seen this program before.
I've spoken with both the individuals you mentioned. Both of them take the time to think things through, apply facts and logic, and reach conclusions. I'm not saying I agree with every one of their conclusions, but they are far from company or union "leg humpers". I also don't necessarily agree with GR's tone when addressing people he disagrees with. I don't think he gets his point across well like that. It's unfortunate, because most of his points are valid and thought out a lot better than those of his detractors.

The message boards have become a gathering place for the miserable. The ones who wont be happy no matter what gets done. The ones who ooze jealousy at everyone around them who gets a break. The ones who feel they are victims of everything (the company, the union, their fellow pilots, the CBA, etc...) just because things aren't going the way THEY think they should be. It's a shame we don't have a cheese emoji to use with all the whine from the usual haters-of-everything.

According to them, things are just soooooooo bad there it's become a slave ship (and other such ridiculous hyperbole), yet they stay. Why do they stay if it's so terrible? Many of the haters are young enough to be able to have a nice career elsewhere. But they stay. Probably for similar reasons Pedro said he stays. Yet here you are on these boards lambasting him for expressing the very same reasons a few of the haters have claimed they stay.

The real problem is, the haters don't like union leadership using facts in their pursuit of gains. A few guys on the boards making absurd claims to prove their points which I can guarantee aren't the truth. For example, one guy on their said we work 14/10 everyday. That's total BS. Funny how all these guys claiming to work these days never take a screenshot of their Pulse and post it. Let me take a wild guess why they dont; because their duty averages will not show anything resembling them working 14/10 every day. I'm not saying we don't work a lot of long and/or difficult days, even some that are 14/10, perhaps many days that FEEL like 14/10, but they get so mad when union leadership points out they have to go into negotiations with hard data to back up their points, and the data does not support the idea that anyone is working 14/10 every day.

But the haters won't listen. They're all emotion and rage. Nothing else. They KNOW the company has HUGE amounts of money to pay us with because reasons. No facts or research, just 'feelings'. And when union leadership thoroughly outlines how they arrived at their conclusions (which involves a lot of research and paid outside economic consultants) they throw little temper tantrums because it doesn't line up with what they believe (beliefs based on no research, just feelings).

We are due for increases in compensation. It seems the handwriting is on the wall in big, neon letters. The company can't ignore it forever. The biggest danger we as a union face is not a leadership team that uses facts and data to guide them, but those who try to spread discord and hate towards our leadership and members they disagree with simply because, like toddlers, they aren't getting what they want right now!

As a side note, have you even read the first amendment? Most first amendment arguments are flat out stupid. The first amendment doesn't apply to a private message board. Maybe it would if the moderators and/or union leadership were branches of the federal government, but last I checked they aren't. And as someone else said, there are rules (-the TOS's) which have been in place for a very long time. Breaking the rules means consequences. Lots and lots of contrary opinions posted by the haters. Look at the Penalty Box. No one has been punished for a long time. Everyone gets to express their opinions as much as they want so long as they follow the rules. Oh, and I saw DZ and GR (multiple times for him) listed in the Penalty box. Seems like anyone who breaks the rules faces the consequences. There's no conspiracy to silence one side or another.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:06 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Peabody17 View Post
jtf,

I also support the union leadership. However, with the latest announcement of a HUGE pay raise by Horizon, on top of all the other regional pay raises announced, I feel the time to pressure management is now…or very, very soon. The longer we wait, the higher the chances of something happening which decreases our bargaining power.
This is right on.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:11 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Peabody17 View Post
jtf,

I also support the union leadership. However, with the latest announcement of a HUGE pay raise by Horizon, on top of all the other regional pay raises announced, I feel the time to pressure management is now…or very, very soon. The longer we wait, the higher the chances of something happening which decreases our bargaining power.
I would love to see our contract increase in value, but having to park large numbers of aircraft due to lack of crews is the kind of leverage that necessitated the pay raises at the regionals. With our training pipeline wide open and currently being filled, that is not currently leverage that we enjoy. I will continue to have trust in our Union leadership to make the call on how we handle the situation going forward.
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Old 09-19-2022, 08:12 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by HeavyD View Post
The 2.5 VED will not snap back to 1.5 due to pilots. It will happen because of management. The survey that is currently ongoing will probably show this.

I don’t mind 1.5x….of a much larger salary.

As long as new FO’s keep working harder and not smarter by picking up VEDs, they are not seeing the big picture. I would rather work a 7/7 schedule at a much higher pay rate instead of a CC72 with extended days to maximize pay.

The larger salary will increase the 1.5x extended day. The company will have to do something soon and hopefully NJASAP won’t stop barking in their ear about demanding a pay raise.

FDP needs to start at 0 and duty rig needs to happen. FDP for airlining too will hopefully stop all of the shoot first, aim later mentality when dealing with planes in mtx. Can’t tell you how many times the plane was signed-off before we landed on the airline.

Working a 12 hour day to fly less than 4 hours is stupid and inefficient. It wasn’t as big of a deal prior to FDP. Not flying takes money away from what we could be earning.

Last edited by ASACapt; 09-19-2022 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 09-19-2022, 08:46 AM
  #45  
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I think aiming for 1.5 or 2.5 is too low.

Not that anyone will ask me, and I don’t want to be asked, but I’d love to see us use what little IBI leverage we have to get extended days increased to 300% across the board. To include after midnight credit.

As you said, that softens the blow of Bridgeway’s scheduling inefficiencies on go home day. I’d love to say they’ll think twice about it if they had to pay us 600% for a 12:01 arrival but we all know that’s pie in the sky.

Additionally, FDP paid on duty time starting at hour 0, with the normal early show and end of day credit compounding where earned.

Yes, the meal deviation credit needs increased. The deviations have become Core’s easy answer to the problem rather than even trying to get your food at the next stop after your 30 minute ferry to start the day.

And lastly, anyone that thinks we aren’t overdue for a base pay increase needs to see a professional. I don’t mean a psychologist, I mean a financial analyst.

While we’re at it, bring everyone up to the GLC scales.

Before I sign off, I’ll also say that any proposal (even if it includes all of the above, and it won’t) that includes an extension to the CBA, is an immediate “no” from me.

10 year contracts are only good for ball players.
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:05 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by ASACapt View Post
I don’t mind 1.5x….of a much larger salary.

As long as new FO’s keep working harder and not smarter by picking up VEDs, they are not seeing the big picture. I would rather work a 7/7 schedule at a much higher pay rate instead of a CC72 with extended days to maximize pay.
.
Some of us we have no choice to pick the low hanging fruit. It's not about working harder vs smarter, it's about making ends meet. Inflation has risen on average 18% in the Phoenix area in the last 12 months. Homeowners such as myself love to see our home values increase, but with that brings higher property taxes and insurance premiums. I left a compititor on 7 year PIC payscale and took a significant pay cut to start over here at NetJets 18 months ago. A dollar went alot further then than it does now.

Senior guys higher up the payscale may have the luxury of having the take it or leave it attitude when it comes to VED. Those of us at the bottom aren't so fortunate.
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:04 PM
  #47  
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NJ is busier than ever, buying airplanes, and offering 2.5x for extended days...but your NJASAP leaders claim there's no money to negotiate for. That is insulting.
Any idiot knows that's a coverup for being stuck in the ridiculous contract extension. You know, the one that was exchanged for the bribe money.
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Old 09-19-2022, 05:16 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by obiden View Post
NJ is busier than ever, buying airplanes, and offering 2.5x for extended days...but your NJASAP leaders claim there's no money to negotiate for. That is insulting.
Any idiot knows that's a coverup for being stuck in the ridiculous contract extension. You know, the one that was exchanged for the bribe money.

And for this reason, as well as lack of vision by NJASAP, is why many PICs are seeking greener pastures as well. Almost every major airline is in contract negotiations right now. I don’t think any pilot union wants to go first since they will be at the bottom.


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Old 09-20-2022, 08:13 AM
  #49  
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While I think the economics are moving in our direction, and believe attrition is picking up which may “encourage” management to open discussions, I’m confused by the tone of many which seems to indicate that NJASAP should demand this, that, or the other NOW! If management doesn’t want to open discussions, what do you suggest NJASAP do for contract improvements?
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Old 09-20-2022, 08:23 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by obiden View Post
NJ is busier than ever, buying airplanes, and offering 2.5x for extended days...but your NJASAP leaders claim there's no money to negotiate for. That is insulting.
Any idiot knows that's a coverup for being stuck in the ridiculous contract extension. You know, the one that was exchanged for the bribe money.
Here's the perfect example of what I was talking about.

That is NOT what union leaders said. I'm not putting union communications on these boards, but I'm sure you can go back and read them for yourself. Read what's actually written, not what you want them to say. No one has said the company has no money, or is broke. No one. Not union leadership. Not union volunteers. Not even GR or DZ.

Maybe union leadership is completely wrong about how much money is available. Maybe they're right. The only thing I know for certain is they've done a lot more research than the usual haters who claim they KNOW what the company's finances are.
As for Das Auto's claim about negotiations, it's true, a number of the major players are in negotiations. True. But they are in section 6. And they will started years ago. None of them opened negotiations recently because of the pilot market. And even now it's not ending quickly. The regionals are a different story. They were hemorrhaging pilots so fast and had so many planes parked because of it, they were pretty much out of options except to provide an unsolicited offer of more money.

Like it or not, Netjets is not currently in negotiations nor approaching anything. Additionally, as much as we're wishing things were different, they are filing classes and attrition isn't terribly high.

That may change in the future, but they don't seem to be feeling the pressure yet.

There are a few things the union can do to increase pressure on the company, but the reality is that it's not much. I think it's fair to not like the duration of our CBA. And I certainly agree we should be seeing pay increases, along with improvements in other areas. Blaming union leadership for getting us past gains we all liked, but came with increased CBA duration that the membership voted in, is pointless and divisive.

We are where we are. None of us are starving or losing our homes, even with current inflation. But if things are so intolerable here, there's never been a better time, even for more seasoned Netjets veterans, to find happier circumstances.
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