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Old 06-10-2024, 04:09 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
To be respected as a pilot group, the pilot group has to earn it and honestly, NJASAP tarnishes it with their tactics.
Ok, I'll ask again- what tactics should the union leadership use that will result in better than what they have helped the group achieve? I want to do better next time. Past choices for sure made it more difficult, but those choices cannot be changed. The overall group refused to stop extending and continued to do what they usually do- just as you pointed out. Participation started to go backwards and there was the start of a slow down in airline hiring so they went super ugly on the ads. Management is all about pretending that the brand is the safest and highest end luxury product out there. We all know that isn't all true. The union leadership had to start attacking the brand before all leverage was gone. Management is very eager to stop this from happening the next time they give us the ammo to use against them so they are suing now to try to take that tool away in the future.

The union leadership could have done better to avoid splitting the junior and senior pilots. The split between junior and senior that the current leadership has been trying to mend since well before the contract was voted on wasn't the big problem that caused the lack of participation. I also think that they went for way too many pickets, but they used the tools they had and came out with at least a place holder of a contract before even that evaporated.

I have no issues switching leadership if the new leadership has new ideas that are likely to work. The group saw through the BS promises with no new, likely to work ideas from the slate that opposed the current group and gave them slightly better than 20% of the vote overall in the just concluded leadership election. It is exceedingly frustrating to see so many not be willing to sacrifice the short term in their own best interest while many of us sacrificed a great deal. I gave up well over 50K, picketed, sponsored pickets, etc... in sacrifice for the substandard deal we got and many sacrificed much more. Even so, I can understand that the current leadership did the best they could with what the group was willing to give them and nobody has thrown out any ideas for how they could have gotten the group to sacrifice enough to get a better deal. Until there is actual unity willing to sacrifice, we will be lucky to continue getting improvements like what we have.
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Old 06-10-2024, 05:41 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by jtf560
Ok, I'll ask again- what tactics should the union leadership use that will result in better than what they have helped the group achieve? I want to do better next time. Past choices for sure made it more difficult, but those choices cannot be changed. The overall group refused to stop extending and continued to do what they usually do- just as you pointed out. Participation started to go backwards and there was the start of a slow down in airline hiring so they went super ugly on the ads. Management is all about pretending that the brand is the safest and highest end luxury product out there. We all know that isn't all true. The union leadership had to start attacking the brand before all leverage was gone. Management is very eager to stop this from happening the next time they give us the ammo to use against them so they are suing now to try to take that tool away in the future.

The union leadership could have done better to avoid splitting the junior and senior pilots. The split between junior and senior that the current leadership has been trying to mend since well before the contract was voted on wasn't the big problem that caused the lack of participation. I also think that they went for way too many pickets, but they used the tools they had and came out with at least a place holder of a contract before even that evaporated.

I have no issues switching leadership if the new leadership has new ideas that are likely to work. The group saw through the BS promises with no new, likely to work ideas from the slate that opposed the current group and gave them slightly better than 20% of the vote overall in the just concluded leadership election. It is exceedingly frustrating to see so many not be willing to sacrifice the short term in their own best interest while many of us sacrificed a great deal. I gave up well over 50K, picketed, sponsored pickets, etc... in sacrifice for the substandard deal we got and many sacrificed much more. Even so, I can understand that the current leadership did the best they could with what the group was willing to give them and nobody has thrown out any ideas for how they could have gotten the group to sacrifice enough to get a better deal. Until there is actual unity willing to sacrifice, we will be lucky to continue getting improvements like what we have.
Well, the union needs to use factual metrics to support its claims. If pilot training was a problem there would be a trackable metric associated with it. Real talk, management has a case against NJASAP here. You can't just say new hires are dangerous without something to show for it. Are failure rates through the roof? Is there an increase in accidents and incidents? Are there a bunch of near misses? The pilot group's actions don't match up with the union's message. The metal keeps moving and the pilot group would be considered content based on their actions. You can get people *****ing on a forum all day long but what does the operation look like? The metal kept moving and pilots kept extending and solving all the company's problems. It would appear that NJASAP was using hyperbole to hurt the company's reputation, which is exactly why they sued. I really hate to see this and I think this will further separate the pilot group from management which is really unfortunate post contract approval.

Clearly, there is a disconnect somewhere if management, NJASAP, and the pilot group's behavior is NEVER in unison.
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:00 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by jtf560
The training is poorly done. It is actually getting worse. They are signing off new hires in the Phenom that have never done a passenger leg. They are not adding anything to the training program to help prepare low experienced pilots for this job. They are throwing them on the line captains that are now getting less and less experience themselves with quick upgrades. This isn't as bad at the airlines since you go to relatively few locations in comparison and since they barely have to deal with passengers and all the other duties that a pilot must do at NetJets. I was a brand new captain at the regional with 500 hour SICs and while it wasn't all peaches and cream, I was able to keep my eye on them for basically all of their duties and make sure things weren't going sideways without my having any that it was happening. That is impossible at NetJets so the training needs to get better, not worse. Also FSI has a harder and harder time hiring and keeping good instructors, not that they seemed to have many in the first place. This also leads to sub standard training.

While we didn't get the contract we wanted, we still secured 52% increases over 6 years. This isnt ideal, but it isn't all that bad at the top of the pay scales. It didn't help the bottom of the scales as much since it is an even percentage for PIC and SIC and 14 years of pay scale rising in an even line, not in big jumps the first few years like the SIC scales at the airlines. This didn't solve the company's problem for paying enough early in the career to capture enough pilots into staying more than a year or 2. It didn't improve working conditions to also keep them. There are still quite large losses every month and still some senior pilots leaving even with the raises. Morale sucks and won't be improving anytime soon. The reason to give us a new contract is to fix things, not let them fester or get worse. The company cheaped out and now they will pay for it one way or another, either by paying more later to fix things or by just running very inefficiency with an angry work force. Honestly, what other union got a big raise when a contract wasn't due? Lots of people like to slam the union for not doing better, but nobody can tell us how to do better. Also it is the unions fault that we get what we get. Not enough do what is needed to secure a better contract. It appears the shaming didn't work and caused a bit of a split, but leadership did at least try to correct that course. I don't know what would have worked to get enough people on board to be willing to work less and give the minimum in order to force better conditions and more money, so I'd love to hear some suggestions for those that like to throw rocks at the leadership. There wouldn't be even what we got without those ads that are damaging to the brand and I won't be surprised to see more to really force some better safety.
You mean the 52% increase on the LBFO that the vocal minority ripped to shreds and 78% ended up signing it less the EFPP that Prince Pedro and his minion ML swore they wouldn't give up anything? Maybe it was the fact that management had NJASAP dead to rights on a few items mentioned in the lawsuit and forces them at the 11th hour in Atalnta to take the deal or be bankrupted. I was privyed to that meeting when 10 days before the contract was agreed to, this exact admission occured at HQ and a direct statement by a member of the EB. They track everything. 180+ metrics and terabits of data. Company has data on the training. It says the opposite of whatever the unions message of the week is. So tell us all again how the chest pounding "we got you a great deal" worked out after bulldozing the membership in the process. Worse than United Alpa that's how.
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:28 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
Well, the union needs to use factual metrics to support its claims. If pilot training was a problem there would be a trackable metric associated with it. Real talk, management has a case against NJASAP here. You can't just say new hires are dangerous without something to show for it. Are failure rates through the roof? Is there an increase in accidents and incidents? Are there a bunch of near misses? The pilot group's actions don't match up with the union's message. The metal keeps moving and the pilot group would be considered content based on their actions. You can get people *****ing on a forum all day long but what does the operation look like? The metal kept moving and pilots kept extending and solving all the company's problems. It would appear that NJASAP was using hyperbole to hurt the company's reputation, which is exactly why they sued. I really hate to see this and I think this will further separate the pilot group from management which is really unfortunate post contract approval.

Clearly, there is a disconnect somewhere if management, NJASAP, and the pilot group's behavior is NEVER in unison.
I don't remember the exact wording of the ads, but I don't believe they ever said that the low time pilots were dangerous. It may have been implied, but leadership claims that the union lawyers vetted all the wording to ensure that it wasn't a lie. Even if it was a hyperbole, the union did not publish lies. I also believe there are metrics about training issues. Those metrics will show that there are training issues for all experience levels and at least some in union leadership have said that the numbers do show that lower time pilots are having a harder time with the training. Any which way it is spun, it is all info the company should want to put a lid on and not bring out in court. The company wants to squash all this info and keep it from ever seeing the light of day. Personally, I hope the union throws a soft ball ad or two at the company advertising the lawsuit (the opposite of what the company is trying to accomplish) and maybe promising to keep the owners updated on the specifics. That is something that may get them to drop the lawsuit since it will just make matters worse for them.

Now all that said, what are your ideas on what the union should do differently to obtain a better outcome? I believe the mud slinging was a big part of the reason we got anything and I don't think it would have been used had the group come together and rejected the extended days and busier schedules, etc... It was basically coming down to uglier and uglier as a last resort. I also believe that union leadership should double down on the advertisements if the company wants to take the lawsuit path. Union leadership has been trying to mend the relationship since they put the TA out for a vote and have tried even harder since ratification. Management needs to let sleeping dogs lie.
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:45 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by JMO127
You mean the 52% increase on the LBFO that the vocal minority ripped to shreds and 78% ended up signing it less the EFPP that Prince Pedro and his minion ML swore they wouldn't give up anything? Maybe it was the fact that management had NJASAP dead to rights on a few items mentioned in the lawsuit and forces them at the 11th hour in Atalnta to take the deal or be bankrupted. I was privyed to that meeting when 10 days before the contract was agreed to, this exact admission occured at HQ and a direct statement by a member of the EB. They track everything. 180+ metrics and terabits of data. Company has data on the training. It says the opposite of whatever the unions message of the week is. So tell us all again how the chest pounding "we got you a great deal" worked out after bulldozing the membership in the process. Worse than United Alpa that's how.
It wasn't the LBFO that we voted on. The numbers were run amd it was slightly better, even without the EFPP. Maybe you didn't bother to run your numbers against the likely payouts of the EFPP. I ran mine and even with crazy profits, I would have done worse on the LBFO that the thing we got. Nobody has been chest beating about what a great deal we got. The eboard overall didn't even endorse it. They simply said this is the best we can do now and likely the best for quite some time. Some individuals said they would vote yes and why and some said they would vote no and why. No chest beating.

As far a the training data goes, I only know what the leadership has put out. I am pretty sure it isn't great for any experience level and would all be embarrassing for the company and a very bad look overall if it really comes out. If the company wants to play with fire, maybe we should advertise those results for them. Truth is not defamation and their lawsuit is all about silencing the union.

I also love your Prince Pedro remark. He was voted in again as president by over 80% over ST. The group evidently doesn't see things the same as you.
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Old 06-11-2024, 05:18 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jtf560
I don't remember the exact wording of the ads, but I don't believe they ever said that the low time pilots were dangerous. It may have been implied, but leadership claims that the union lawyers vetted all the wording to ensure that it wasn't a lie. Even if it was a hyperbole, the union did not publish lies. I also believe there are metrics about training issues. Those metrics will show that there are training issues for all experience levels and at least some in union leadership have said that the numbers do show that lower time pilots are having a harder time with the training. Any which way it is spun, it is all info the company should want to put a lid on and not bring out in court. The company wants to squash all this info and keep it from ever seeing the light of day. Personally, I hope the union throws a soft ball ad or two at the company advertising the lawsuit (the opposite of what the company is trying to accomplish) and maybe promising to keep the owners updated on the specifics. That is something that may get them to drop the lawsuit since it will just make matters worse for them.

Now all that said, what are your ideas on what the union should do differently to obtain a better outcome? I believe the mud slinging was a big part of the reason we got anything and I don't think it would have been used had the group come together and rejected the extended days and busier schedules, etc... It was basically coming down to uglier and uglier as a last resort. I also believe that union leadership should double down on the advertisements if the company wants to take the lawsuit path. Union leadership has been trying to mend the relationship since they put the TA out for a vote and have tried even harder since ratification. Management needs to let sleeping dogs lie.
Well, there would be no reason to sue NJASAP and destroy what little friendly working relationship the two had left. I hope NJASAP wins but where there is smoke, there is fire. I remember a few of the ads (that were poorly done to begin with) talking about looking out the window and seeing the panel of a plane? Implying maintenance has tanked? Are pilots not writing up squawks and flying broken planes? Petro was quoted last year trashing basically all elements of training but again, you can do that when there are statistics to back up the claims. Not for me to decide but clearly management sees something worth going after NJASAP for at a time when workgroup relations should be at their highest.

A better outcome is a relative statement. The pilot group voted it in, which is declaring approval for what was presented. The majority of the pilot group showed that they were satisfied with their vote so on paper, NJASAP and the pilot group should be satisfied which really means you did get a satisfactory outcome. NJASAPs claims and defenses do not match the pilot group's actions, which has always confused management. Without true transparency and having NJASAP truly integrated and woven into the operation, management can hold all the data it wants, close to its heart. NJASAP (and whoever takes over or continues to run the union for decades to come) will always be secluded from parts of the financials and operational data. Management will always have an advantage in this case. NJASAP can make claims and feelings but unless it impacts a spreadsheet, management doesn't care and moreover, can use it against NJASAP in a lawsuit which is exactly what they are going to do.
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Old 06-11-2024, 08:25 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by jtf560
Ok, I'll ask again- what tactics should the union leadership use that will result in better than what they have helped the group achieve? I want to do better next time. Past choices for sure made it more difficult, but those choices cannot be changed. The overall group refused to stop extending and continued to do what they usually do- just as you pointed out. Participation started to go backwards and there was the start of a slow down in airline hiring so they went super ugly on the ads. Management is all about pretending that the brand is the safest and highest end luxury product out there. We all know that isn't all true. The union leadership had to start attacking the brand before all leverage was gone. Management is very eager to stop this from happening the next time they give us the ammo to use against them so they are suing now to try to take that tool away in the future.

The union leadership could have done better to avoid splitting the junior and senior pilots. The split between junior and senior that the current leadership has been trying to mend since well before the contract was voted on wasn't the big problem that caused the lack of participation. I also think that they went for way too many pickets, but they used the tools they had and came out with at least a place holder of a contract before even that evaporated.

I have no issues switching leadership if the new leadership has new ideas that are likely to work. The group saw through the BS promises with no new, likely to work ideas from the slate that opposed the current group and gave them slightly better than 20% of the vote overall in the just concluded leadership election. It is exceedingly frustrating to see so many not be willing to sacrifice the short term in their own best interest while many of us sacrificed a great deal. I gave up well over 50K, picketed, sponsored pickets, etc... in sacrifice for the substandard deal we got and many sacrificed much more. Even so, I can understand that the current leadership did the best they could with what the group was willing to give them and nobody has thrown out any ideas for how they could have gotten the group to sacrifice enough to get a better deal. Until there is actual unity willing to sacrifice, we will be lucky to continue getting improvements like what we have.
Negotiations using the IBB framework are probably difficult. Negotiations when a significant portion of the pilot group is helping out and flying extra are probably difficult.

Negotiations using a executive board that has ostracized and bullied those that disagree with them since about 2016 are probably difficult.

Negotiations and progress with "group think" and no opposition are difficult.

The company knows the pilot group better than the pilot group knows itself. This makes life hard as well.

In my opinion the pilot group has made years of missteps that are very difficult to recover from. The bed has been made, so to speak.

Airline unions don't use IBB very much, they aren't effective at silencing the opposition. The MEC Chairman usually don't sit terms that approach 10 years or more.

NJASAP is in a league of its own. I don't think it has produced effective or healthy results, and it's a big reason why a lot of decent talent has left.

All unions make mistakes and are imperfect. What makes NJASAP unique is the support of the pilot group for very dubious and dysfunctional behavior and practices, year after year.
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Old 06-11-2024, 12:16 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by AntiPeter
Negotiations using the IBB framework are probably difficult. Negotiations when a significant portion of the pilot group is helping out and flying extra are probably difficult.

Negotiations using a executive board that has ostracized and bullied those that disagree with them since about 2016 are probably difficult.

Negotiations and progress with "group think" and no opposition are difficult.

The company knows the pilot group better than the pilot group knows itself. This makes life hard as well.

In my opinion the pilot group has made years of missteps that are very difficult to recover from. The bed has been made, so to speak.

Airline unions don't use IBB very much, they aren't effective at silencing the opposition. The MEC Chairman usually don't sit terms that approach 10 years or more.

NJASAP is in a league of its own. I don't think it has produced effective or healthy results, and it's a big reason why a lot of decent talent has left.

All unions make mistakes and are imperfect. What makes NJASAP unique is the support of the pilot group for very dubious and dysfunctional behavior and practices, year after year.
This is again, completely spot on.
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