2minuteman

Hello guys.

I was wondering if it is legal or what the thought is about a 121 carrier having a “UFE” (Unavailable For Extension) on employee attendance records when a pilot does not feel well enough to extend their max FDP because he/she is about to time out.

Is this even legal?

Thanks.

Throwitaway

I mean, they can track whatever the heck they want. But things will get really messy if they try to terminate you for it. ANY punitive action against someone for acting in the legitimate interest of safety is a dangerous game to play.

2minuteman

Thank you for your response.

So basically there is no protection for retaliation based on how many times you didn’t extend and they could perfectly still judge your attendance and/or terminate you based on “other performance” records because no law exists to prevent being terminated due to vague reasons such as that.

That makes pilots feel really confident not extending when tired.

“Hopefully they won’t give those records to the next airline I’m trying to go to”

... think UNITED AVIATE program...

Cyio

Why not just call out fatigued and be done with it? I know with our airline if you choose to not extend you are expected to file a fatigue report. Pretty much clean and clear at that point.

Boats and Hos

Some airlines do and some do not with regards to extending and fatigue. Nowhere in the FARs does it say you have to, in fact it is up to the PIC and that includes for all crewmembers. Where it gets questionable is the FAA has NOT said what an airline can do about it. It should be part of the contract. I 100% DISAGREE WITH THAT UTTER NONSENSE! What is the point of having rules if an airline can punish you for them??? It gets better though. If, or when, you call in fatigued, the report gets reviewed, not by medical people but, just regular staff. Staff that have 0 knowledge of what fatigue is or how it happens or affects people. Why, they don’t have to fly fatigued because they don’t fly. They can then reject your fatigue report. Non punitive you say, horsepoopy, they can take your pay. THAT IS PUNISHMENT! They just disguise it. My regional is the worst at it! Won’t say who it is as they know. I endeavor to let them know all the time.

The FARs need to be revisited again. It’s been 10 years now. There is some grey area that needs to be addressed and extensions/fatigue and Stand ups are the biggies. The Flight attendants, FINALLY, get some rest rules. Just when I think we have it bad, I see how F/As get treated and HOLY HELL.

I honestly ask myself why anyone wants to do this anymore.

Rant finished. Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night. Now back to my spooker!

LoitaHills

It is “legal” for a 121 Carrier to have a UFE on your employment attendance record when a pilot does not feel well enough to extend their max FDP. However, the “legality” of your Employer’s attendance record has nothing to do with 14 CFR 117.19. It just means in reference to your Employer’s recording of pilot “attendance,” they are remarking that you have refused, while in your scheduled FDP, to be extended to the maximum FDP. You may be within the legality of the FAA regulation to refuse the extension, but your Employer is tracking your refusal. They can, and do document that information.

I don’t know the full context of your question, but I’m guessing your Carrier has an Employee Manual that has references relevant to the recording your workplace attendance, even when it comes to refusing FDP extensions. Typically, such manuals are considered a way of documenting “conditions of employment” or if you accept employment for said Carrier, they have the expectation that you will abide by their Employment Manual. It is typically in the Preamble or Introduction of such a document. And, many Carriers abide by the “letter of the FAA law” but place conditions outside of the “law” as to the purpose of the refusal. The FAA doesn’t necessarily care about those conditions, unless you are being coerced or pressured to extend when you are physically fatigued or ill.

Some Carriers have FDP extensions as part of the Union (Collective Bargaining Agreement) Contract and afford pilot protections from disciplinary action if they so choose to refuse an FDP extension. Some even incentivize their pilots to accept FDP extensions.

Hope that this information is helpful.

LH

JohnnyBekkestad

I am pretty sure i have seen a LOI for this and that is why we expected to fill out a fatigue report.

jonnyjetprop

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

gripngrab

That is absolutely not "Clean and Clear." It's punitive and very much so. Since you are at Envoy, I completely understand as I was a part of the predecessor "American Eagle." There should not be any question or reports if you DO NOT extend. I am at NK now and there are no reports and no repercussions if you do not extend. If you aren't fatigued AT THAT POINT when they ask you to extend, there is no need for a fatigue report. If you feel like you could become fatigued by accepting the extension, that is why you decline, again no need for a report.

TiredSoul

Regardless I think you have a moral obligation to tell your employer why you cannot extend.
You’re at work and they need you to go from over here to over there.
I think you really only have fatigue as an “out”.
Because you don’t feel like it just doesn’t cut it in my book.

Now...here’s the caveat.
If your employer is equally ethical in their duties, Scheduling and planning and dispatch in trying to avoid an extension....
Some are not though.
I’ve flown for an operator that would schedule 4 legs within 5 min of max FDP.
Expecting you’d sign an extension prior to leg 4, knowing you always incur delays that you can’t make up in a 45-60 min leg.
Now it’s pretty much emotional blackmail as you’ve got an airplane boarded and ready with people that need to go somewhere and a cabin crew that wants to go home.
Good luck being the a-hole that walks off.
I do think you need to be flexible enough to extend if it’s really unforeseen.